2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
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Stu
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
20 Jul 2023, 00:16
mzso wrote:
19 Jul 2023, 22:42
Just_a_fan wrote:
19 Jul 2023, 21:30


You want the cars to be shorter - to do that means reducing some combination of wheelbase and front/rear overhangs. Reducing the front overhang naturally puts the driver's feet nearer to any point of impact and reduces the amount of crash structure length available to deal with the energy. That means both the front of the tub is more at risk and the forces applied to the driver will be higher - shorter distance to absorb energy means higher acceleration.

So the only sensible way to reduce overall length is by reducing wheelbase. That's where any changes should be made.
Looking back to the Ferrari F1 98…
Front overhang was shorter (todays cars have an artificially elongated overhang to cater for the delta front wing), drivers were sat more upright (for some reason the FIA ignore their own ‘best practice’ seating positioning regulations from LMH & GT racing - overall height was still 950mm), fuel tank was 190L (now approx 120L plus battery volume - no net change), V12 engine, transmission was ahead of the rear axle (iirc).
Two big areas there where a length reduction can be achieved.
In theory 2026 cars will have less average power available to them (MGU-H gone, reduction in fuel volume), requiring less cooling - all of this has the ability to reduce mass.

As mass has been added to cars since 2014 more mass is required to pass crash tests (the tests use Force as the primary parameter), mass reduction in the cars would have a knock-on effect (less mass required).

As I suggested previously, an ‘unrealistic’ minimum vehicle mass would not be unhelpful, many teams went for lower weight & less power when KERS was first introduced. In many areas of the rules you MUST use could be replaced with you MAY use.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

CaribouBread
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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There seems to be interesting new stuff in the article, but unfortunately its paywalled.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -getriebe/

CaribouBread
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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CaribouBread wrote:
20 Jul 2023, 09:50


There seems to be interesting new stuff in the article, but unfortunately its paywalled.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -getriebe/
Bit the bullet and bought a subscription

Important bits:

Teams have veto'd the 70 kg fuel, so now its back up to 100 kgs. I guess this is what Gruener means by 30 kg extra fuel to burn.

"Everyone" agrees to reduce wheelbase by 30 cm for now.

Symmonds thinks they could've added 2 complete MGU system within 18 kg weight limit. Teams didn't want front regen so now they have to burn fuel.

No new info on active aero in this article.

wuzak
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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The larger batteries and more powerful electric motors as well as the omission of the MGU-H are already priced into the 190 kilogram total weight
I assume that means with the ES included?

150kg + 35kg = 185kg - which seems right.

But the current ones are 150kg + 25kg + ?. There are components specified in the 2026 ES weight that aren't in the current ES weight.
Last edited by wuzak on 20 Jul 2023, 12:46, edited 1 time in total.

wuzak
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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One wonders if they got rid of the ERS completely und upped the fuel energy flow rate whether they would be as fast as the 2026 cars as projected and use less fuel?

wuzak
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Today, the MGU-K contributes 120 kilowatts (163 hp) to the total output. In 2026 it should be 350 kilowatts (475 hp). And that has consequences. As things stand at present, the weight of the drive units will increase by around 40 kilograms to 190 kilograms. And the electrical energy must first be reliably recuperated.
They have to be counting the ES, as the rules specify 130kg for the ICE (including turbo), 16kg for the MGUK and 4kg for the MGUK transmission.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Stu wrote:
20 Jul 2023, 07:50

As mass has been added to cars since 2014 more mass is required to pass crash tests (the tests use Force as the primary parameter), mass reduction in the cars would have a knock-on effect (less mass required).
A less massive car with the same downforce will corner faster. Higher speed dwarfs slight mass changes in terms of resultant energies involved in a crash.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Cs98
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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These rules man... 30kg of fuel burn just to power the MGU-K. Greenwashing at its finest. Instead of actually making the cars be efficient with dual axle regen and/or exhaust regen, we get this crap.

Just drop the fuel burn, put some of that 30kg directly into ICE propulsion, make the ICE more powerful and we'll get a much more entertaining product.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Cs98 wrote:
20 Jul 2023, 13:44
These rules man... 30kg of fuel burn just to power the MGU-K. Greenwashing at its finest. Instead of actually making the cars be efficient with dual axle regen and/or exhaust regen, we get this crap.
Just drop the fuel burn, put some of that 30kg directly into ICE propulsion, make the ICE more powerful and we'll get a much more entertaining product.
yes
it's most race-efficient to use energy at the highest rates early on the straight not later ... but (presumably) ...
the fuel-rate freedom needed to accumulate fuel energy is still banned as ...
electrical energy accumulation is mandated (mechanical energy accumulation eg Williams is also banned)

mzso
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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wuzak wrote:
20 Jul 2023, 04:15
mzso wrote:
19 Jul 2023, 19:39
Just_a_fan wrote:
18 Jul 2023, 20:47

The rule came in for 1988.

https://www.f1technical.net/articles/26
I was talking about car length, not the rule. Which only got obscene far more recently.

BTW, that rule is meaningless. The feet being behind the suspension, doesn't accomplish much, if anything. What's relevant is the strength of the monocoque and the crumple zone in the nose.
If the driver is moved forward so that his feet are ahead of the front axle line then the crash structure will be moved forward as well, so that the nose would be longer ahead of the front wheels than now.
If it needs to be that long.
Anyway, the issue is rather moot. Cars could be made for less than 4.5m after that rule. So it's possible to do so again.

mzso
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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AR3-GP wrote:
20 Jul 2023, 00:59
mzso wrote:
19 Jul 2023, 22:42

The rule often mentioned says the driver fee can't exren forward the suspension mountings. Which seems rather meaningless.
I wouldn't call it meaningless. Although the suspension arms are designed to fail before they pierce the monocoque, stranger things have happened.
At least this is a valid concern. (First I've seen) Even if it is unlikely.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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mzso wrote:
20 Jul 2023, 17:13
AR3-GP wrote:
20 Jul 2023, 00:59
mzso wrote:
19 Jul 2023, 22:42

The rule often mentioned says the driver fee can't exren forward the suspension mountings. Which seems rather meaningless.
I wouldn't call it meaningless. Although the suspension arms are designed to fail before they pierce the monocoque, stranger things have happened.
At least this is a valid concern. (First I've seen) Even if it is unlikely.
This scenario did happen in Indycar to James Hinchliffe during a practice session for the Indy 500. He survived of course.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/ ... /81036768/

If I'm not mistaken, there are also other incidents in history.
A lion must kill its prey.

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Stu
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
20 Jul 2023, 13:42
Stu wrote:
20 Jul 2023, 07:50

As mass has been added to cars since 2014 more mass is required to pass crash tests (the tests use Force as the primary parameter), mass reduction in the cars would have a knock-on effect (less mass required).
A less massive car with the same downforce will corner faster. Higher speed dwarfs slight mass changes in terms of resultant energies involved in a crash.
The lower fuel load and less available power (averaged across the lap), along with what will probably be a DIS (Drag Induction System) for braking zones will lead to comparatively low downforce cars (or certainly more efficient cars).
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

CaribouBread
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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Stu wrote:
20 Jul 2023, 19:44

The lower fuel load and less available power (averaged across the lap), along with what will probably be a DIS (Drag Induction System) for braking zones will lead to comparatively low downforce cars (or certainly more efficient cars).
I prefer your Drag Induction System (DIS) moniker - than 'active aero' a better reflection of reality and intended goals :lol: =D>

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2026 F1 Cars - General Thread

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CaribouBread wrote:
21 Jul 2023, 06:29
Stu wrote:
20 Jul 2023, 19:44
The lower fuel load and less available power (averaged across the lap), along with what will probably be a DIS (Drag Induction System) for braking zones will lead to comparatively low downforce cars (or certainly more efficient cars).
I prefer your Drag Induction System (DIS) moniker - than 'active aero' a better reflection of reality and intended goals
well .....
more efficient means nothing other than the least laptime on the available fuel energy

to get the maximum recovery of KE we need increased braking time ie less downforce only at high speed
less DF at high speed doesn't necessarily mean more aerodynamic or other efficiency

we will need to be clear about the nature of the design approach that emerges
snappily categorising this now as DIS could be unhelpful
eg this isn't an air brake - and an air brake is exactly what isn't needed