2022 budget cap violations

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
User avatar
AMG.Tzan
42
Joined: 24 Jan 2013, 01:35
Location: Greece

Re: 2022 budget cap violations

Post

Stu wrote:
19 Jul 2023, 22:09
AMG.Tzan wrote:
19 Jul 2023, 14:56

A lot of you are talking about this year's upgrades! It doesn't really matter since we're talking about last year's budget cap! I remember last year a certain team being ready to bring a lightweight chassis! I find this interesting too since Mercedes has been saying since the start of the season that it's impossible under the budget cap to develop a new chassis...
That chassis does not get included as it wasn’t used (just the same as the mysterious ‘goblin wing’ will not be included).
It wouldn’t surprise me if the RB19 is using a development of the lightweight chassis - meaning that they haven’t developed two chassis that have to be accounted for in the cap period.



However, it is interesting to see that mud is being thrown before the report is released, AGAIN!!
I think that too!

Most of the RB19’s development was done around the chassis weight and distribution…aero had small revision (at least on top)! But if we assume that rumors of Red Bull being 20kg overweight in 2022 then a 20kg cut would account for around 0,6-0,7 secs improvement! So I think it’s pretty close to what RB achieved with the RB19!

Well yeah mud is always thrown to the team dominating it seems! But it’s just a hope for those losing right now that things might change in the near future :lol: :lol:
"The only rule is there are no rules" - Aristotle Onassis

Willy
Willy
1
Joined: 01 Jul 2023, 17:37

Re: 2022 budget cap violations

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
19 Jul 2023, 18:36
The rumor now (according to Amus) is that it is 2 teams, not 3. Make of that what you will.
If Shaila Ann Rao would still be with FIA, Toto would let us know the names of the teams.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
364
Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2022 budget cap violations

Post

Willy wrote:
20 Jul 2023, 04:51
AR3-GP wrote:
19 Jul 2023, 18:36
The rumor now (according to Amus) is that it is 2 teams, not 3. Make of that what you will.
If Shaila Ann Rao would still be with FIA, Toto would let us know the names of the teams.
Don't you start :lol:

It's a curious case. Normally these teams are so bitter in the competition that they would take any opportunity to leak something like this. So perhaps there's nothing to leak. The reports are due in the next 2-3 weeks. We would have heard something credible long ago if there was an actual breach.

Most of the names being used in the twitter rumors currently are just fantasies of the various twitter accounts.

RB know they can't err twice. Mercedes have a 50 person strong finance department. Alpine complained a lot and clearly prefer to underspend. Zak Brown was vocal last year.

I just can't rationalize any actual culprits. Rules and clarifications were made last year. Teams should have this well in order.
A lion must kill its prey.

Aesop
Aesop
0
Joined: 08 Jul 2019, 19:30

Re: 2022 budget cap violations

Post

Well since the 21 violation only surfaced well into 22 i'd reckon not a lot could be done to mitigate 22 total spending...

User avatar
ValeVida46
0
Joined: 23 Feb 2023, 13:36

Re: 2022 budget cap violations

Post

Stu wrote:
19 Jul 2023, 22:09
However, it is interesting to see that mud is being thrown before the report is released, AGAIN!!
Pretty much every team is suspect from every post on this thread.
Is it mudslinging only when your favoured team is suspect?

User avatar
Stu
Moderator
Joined: 02 Nov 2019, 10:05
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: 2022 budget cap violations

Post

ValeVida46 wrote:
20 Jul 2023, 10:03
Stu wrote:
19 Jul 2023, 22:09
However, it is interesting to see that mud is being thrown before the report is released, AGAIN!!
Pretty much every team is suspect from every post on this thread.
Is it mudslinging only when your favoured team is suspect?
Have Team Lotus been thrown into the mix?
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

User avatar
ValeVida46
0
Joined: 23 Feb 2023, 13:36

Re: 2022 budget cap violations

Post

Stu wrote:
20 Jul 2023, 17:51
Have Team Lotus been thrown into the mix?
Interesting they weren't part of your mudslinging reference.

User avatar
Sieper
73
Joined: 14 Mar 2017, 15:19

Re: 2022 budget cap violations

Post

ValeVida46 wrote:
20 Jul 2023, 18:33
Stu wrote:
20 Jul 2023, 17:51
Have Team Lotus been thrown into the mix?
Interesting they weren't part of your mudslinging reference.
You were actually the very first person to reply in this thread and immediately started to make fun of RBR.

Perhaps it would only be right if you feel addressed.

User avatar
ValeVida46
0
Joined: 23 Feb 2023, 13:36

Re: 2022 budget cap violations

Post

Sieper wrote:
20 Jul 2023, 18:40
You were actually the very first person to reply in this thread and immediately started to make fun of RBR.

Perhaps it would only be right if you feel addressed.
Citing a quote from Horner and a reference for the quote that he wasn't 100% confident Red Bull would make the budget cap, having broken it for catering. That's not "making fun"... I brought the receipt. In return I see no reference for your post.
Perhaps address the reality and the quote than being upset at who posted it.

User avatar
Wouter
111
Joined: 16 Dec 2017, 13:02

Re: 2022 budget cap violations

Post

"The first month after that deadline is dedicated to an in-depth review of the information submitted," says FIA single-seater financial regulations director Federico Lodi.

"And when we talk about submission it's not just a few spreadsheets. Each submission is composed of a 150-200 page document, so there is a lot of documentation to go through.

"The first month is usually dedicated to a detailed review of all the documentation to perhaps identify areas that require a little bit more in-depth analysis. We then identify follow-up questions and request more documentation, if needed, in preparation for our planned arrival at their facility.

"This is where we basically undertake an on-site audit and this usually starts at the beginning of May. And from then onwards we basically spend months on the road, visiting one team after another and basically rubber stamping their submission."

Given the scale of the operation it's not surprising that it takes time to dig through it all.

However, Lodi is well aware that the series as a whole can't wait as long as it did last year when confirmation of the Red Bull penalty came almost seven months after the final submissions.

"It's clear that there is an interest from the stakeholders to have a quick outcome," he says.

"We, as the FIA, understand these requirements, so we have strengthened the department, and now we have 10 full-time employees working on F1 financial regulation. This is a significant increase over last year, when it was just four.
Mechanics clear the grid prior to the start of the formation lap

"However, it is still clear that it's difficult to commit to a rigid timeline, as there are many variables that need to be taken into account. First, there are the findings themselves – what we identify and what we need to dig into further.

"On top of that, we also have to take into account the fact that we do the review with the support of the team, and obviously, the finance department of the team is also busy with running its business; they may also have a reporting commitment to their shareholders for example.

"So while we need to work as quickly as possible, for us the most important thing is not to undermine the robustness of the process."

Lodi acknowledges that it wasn't easy to recruit the right people for his expanded team.

"It's massively complicated. Everyone in our department is a former auditor. That's not a problem, the pool of auditors is quite large.

"The challenge is to find someone with a sporting background and then a motorsport background and finally knowledge of F1, because it is specific. We struggled initially, so we have decided to take another approach, and we are training them internally on the specificities of F1."

Aside from increasing the headcount, Lodi says the process will automatically speed up as both the FIA and the teams themselves become more used to what it involves, and how much detail is required.

"Simply, the more everyone becomes accustomed to the regulation, the more you become accustomed to the process, the more we are structured, clearly the time will be reduced," he notes.

"But we have to be realistic, because I don't think that it will be feasible to finalise the review after one month or 45 days. It also depends on the findings, because if you need to open a formal investigation, it takes time.

"There are lawyers involved, advisory boards, so the process is a long one. But we have a clear target in mind to do it quicker."

Last year's process saw everyone learn lessons, not least Red Bull, whose interpretation of certain elements of spending differed from that of the FIA.

It's no secret that this year the governing body has been digging deeper into the role of technology divisions that sit alongside race teams, with greater attention paid to how the time of some engineers is divided between the two.

"I think that in year one, there was a little bit of uncertainty, because it was the first time a financial regulation had been brought into professional motorsport," says Lodi.

"Also, I think that for the teams it was a little bit challenging, because the regulations are objectively complicated, because the businesses we have to regulate are complicated.

"When we are talking about organisations with 1000 employees, undertaking engineering activities, manufacturing activities, with commercial and racing arms. So the business is complicated.

"Now, after last year I am confident that the doubts everyone had last year are clarified. So hopefully, going forward, we will have less and less difference of interpretation in respect of the regulations. Even if they are still discussing how to interpret things on a weekly basis."

That dialogue in turn feeds back into rules, which are constantly subject to review. Most of the ongoing updates come in the form of clarifications that are the equivalent of FIA technical directives, and which are seen only by the teams and are not officially published.

Lodi notes that during the 2021 process, some teams asked more questions than others, and those who appeared to be more relaxed have been rather more vocal during the current investigations.

"Last year the numbers of clarification requests varied significantly from team to team," he says. "I think this is another lesson everyone learned from last year.

"What we have seen after last year is that now, almost all the teams are very forthcoming and are now trying to discuss with us any doubts they have beforehand. This is another aspect that will hopefully reduce the risk of misunderstanding."
The Power of Dreams!

Willy
Willy
1
Joined: 01 Jul 2023, 17:37

Re: 2022 budget cap violations

Post

Alpine and Aston Martin are rumoured to be 2 of the 3 teams which are set to have additional cost cap investigations

The 3rd team is one between Red Bull or Mercedes. The German press believes that Mercedes is at a much higher risk than Red Bull

Point deductions as a punishment for breaching the cost cap will only affect last season's results (2022).


Cs98
Cs98
33
Joined: 01 Jul 2022, 11:37

Re: 2022 budget cap violations

Post

Willy wrote:
22 Jul 2023, 11:07
Alpine and Aston Martin are rumoured to be 2 of the 3 teams which are set to have additional cost cap investigations

The 3rd team is one between Red Bull or Mercedes. The German press believes that Mercedes is at a much higher risk than Red Bull

Point deductions as a punishment for breaching the cost cap will only affect last season's results (2022).

The tweet is gone. What's the source? And weren't German press reporting it was 2 teams before?

User avatar
Wouter
111
Joined: 16 Dec 2017, 13:02

Re: 2022 budget cap violations

Post

Cs98 wrote:
22 Jul 2023, 11:30
Willy wrote:
22 Jul 2023, 11:07
Alpine and Aston Martin are rumoured to be 2 of the 3 teams which are set to have additional cost cap investigations

The 3rd team is one between Red Bull or Mercedes. The German press believes that Mercedes is at a much higher risk than Red Bull

Point deductions as a punishment for breaching the cost cap will only affect last season's results (2022).

.
The tweet is gone. What's the source? And weren't German press reporting it was 2 teams before?
.


Translated from FormulaPassion:

Alpine and Aston Martin in the sights

But which teams would end up under the magnifying glass? In this case the rumors circulating tend to differ from country to country. However, two teams seem to be indicated by many as potential suspects: Alpine and Aston Martin. According to what Corriere dello Sport reported, there would be a third team in the sights of the federation which could be - but the conditional is a must - one between Red Bull and Mercedes. The Anglo-Saxon press believes the Brackley stable is more at risk, while the German press foresees a possible additional investigation into the reigning champion stable. For Red Bull, in particular, the risk is double. In fact, the federation could punish - if necessary - recidivism.
The Power of Dreams!

Cs98
Cs98
33
Joined: 01 Jul 2022, 11:37

Re: 2022 budget cap violations

Post

Wouter wrote:
22 Jul 2023, 11:51

But which teams would end up under the magnifying glass? In this case the rumors circulating tend to differ from country to country. However, two teams seem to be indicated by many as potential suspects: Alpine and Aston Martin. According to what Corriere dello Sport reported, there would be a third team in the sights of the federation which could be - but the conditional is a must - one between Red Bull and Mercedes. The Anglo-Saxon press believes the Brackley stable is more at risk, while the German press foresees a possible additional investigation into the reigning champion stable. For Red Bull, in particular, the risk is double. In fact, the federation could punish - if necessary - recidivism.
Formulapassion? Not exactly credible. Particularly when none of the foreign media cited have reported on specific teams (AFAIK).
there would be a third team in the sights of the federation which could be - but the conditional is a must - one between Red Bull and Mercedes. The Anglo-Saxon press believes the Brackley stable is more at risk, while the German press foresees a possible additional investigation into the reigning champion stable.
How convenient. The third and most vague potential investigation is between those two. Doesn't seem like a ploy to generate clicks at all.

User avatar
Stu
Moderator
Joined: 02 Nov 2019, 10:05
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: 2022 budget cap violations

Post

Wouter wrote:
21 Jul 2023, 21:23



"And when we talk about submission it's not just a few spreadsheets. Each submission is composed of a 150-200 page document, so there is a lot of documentation to go through.



Given the scale of the operation it's not surprising that it takes time to dig through it all.



"We, as the FIA, understand these requirements, so we have strengthened the department, and now we have 10 full-time employees working on F1 financial regulation. This is a significant increase over last year, when it was just four.
Mechanics clear the grid prior to the start of the formation lap



"On top of that, we also have to take into account the fact that we do the review with the support of the team, and obviously, the finance department of the team is also busy with running its business; they may also have a reporting commitment to their shareholders for example.
...

"But we have to be realistic, because I don't think that it will be feasible to finalise the review after one month or 45 days. It also depends on the findings, because if you need to open a formal investigation, it takes time.

"There are lawyers involved, advisory boards, so the process is a long one. But we have a clear target in mind to do it quicker."

...

It's no secret that this year the governing body has been digging deeper into the role of technology divisions that sit alongside race teams, with greater attention paid to how the time of some engineers is divided between the two.



"When we are talking about organisations with 1000 employees, undertaking engineering activities, manufacturing activities, with commercial and racing arms. So the business is complicated.


Great post!
As in all aspects of the sport, the FIA are massively under resourced compared with the teams!
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.