2023 Alpine F1 Team

[MIKEY_!]

Which is more likely: Permane is anti-french but kept his job at a team that was mostly french-owned for so many years - or that Renault Group is resorting to character assassination to justify the sackings and cover up their toxic corporate culture and unrealistic expectations? My money is on the latter.

Why would Group Renault need to justify their actions publicly about firing of 2 executives?

Probably for the same reason any business needs to justify its actions when getting critisised in the media

[Juzh]

To me, Otmar always came off as the biggest brown noser to the point which would make partisan politicians blush. Also, he has always seemed to have a weaselly quality to him since Racing Point days where he refuses to accept any responsibility and always has someone to blame.

With Alonso, with regard to his lost points due to reliability issues, Szaufner said "It's not that we're failing Fernando, there are several reasons why he hasn't scored points. I remember the battle with Mick Schumacher [at Imola], a touch made a hole in the sidepod. His defence in Canada against Bottas cost him a penalty, just like in Miami.”

The Imola incident was Schumacher's fault. In Canada, the PU was already compromised and poor strategy compounded the problem which Alonso tried to compensate for and made a desperate move. Regardless, that maybe cost them 4-5 points vs 50-60 lost undeniably due to reliability issues. What a bizarre way to undercut your driver in the media.

Also, prior to the AM announcement, Szafnauer made multiple comments about his age in the media, to the effect of needing to prove himself even though he was faster than Ocon who already received an extension.

Its one thing to follow orders of your boss but its another to blatantly lie in the media in order to character assassinate a rookie who is yet to race in F1.The hitman gets as much blame as the person who called the hit. With Otmar, he seemed to be almost gleeful to do Rossi's dirty work and probably deserves all the blame for how he went about doing it.

Re unreliability, Otmar went on to say (in that very same quote): "But we must understand what has happened. We have to solve all the little problems, so that they don't reappear in the car." So he did in fact accept blame for things that were in the team's control. You have to remember this came in the context of Alonso incessantly complaining about the team costing him an ever-growing (somewhat exaggerated) number of points (so much so it became a running joke at Alonso's expense) and Alonso pointing out that "Esteban's car is always reliable". When your driver is constantly undercutting the team in the media, and the media keeps asking you to comment on your driver's criticism, sooner or later the boss has to stick up for the other 500 employees a little bit. Hard to blame Otmar for this one.

As for Otmar's comments about Alonso's age, it was always about the reality that eventually Alonso's age would catch up with him, and the team wanted some flexibility for when that happened. I have seen nothing about expecting Alonso to "prove himself". If you go back and look at the quotes you'll see it was all pretty reasonable stuff. Even Alonso didn't criticise Otmar about it at the time. Again, hard to blame Otmar here.

I haven't seen anything gleeful about Otmar doing Rossi's dirty work - maybe your interpretation is coloured by already disliking him.

Doctor strange levels of reality warping and word twisting in this post.

[peewon]

To me, Otmar always came off as the biggest brown noser to the point which would make partisan politicians blush. Also, he has always seemed to have a weaselly quality to him since Racing Point days where he refuses to accept any responsibility and always has someone to blame.

With Alonso, with regard to his lost points due to reliability issues, Szaufner said "It's not that we're failing Fernando, there are several reasons why he hasn't scored points. I remember the battle with Mick Schumacher [at Imola], a touch made a hole in the sidepod. His defence in Canada against Bottas cost him a penalty, just like in Miami.”

The Imola incident was Schumacher's fault. In Canada, the PU was already compromised and poor strategy compounded the problem which Alonso tried to compensate for and made a desperate move. Regardless, that maybe cost them 4-5 points vs 50-60 lost undeniably due to reliability issues. What a bizarre way to undercut your driver in the media.

Also, prior to the AM announcement, Szafnauer made multiple comments about his age in the media, to the effect of needing to prove himself even though he was faster than Ocon who already received an extension.

Its one thing to follow orders of your boss but its another to blatantly lie in the media in order to character assassinate a rookie who is yet to race in F1.The hitman gets as much blame as the person who called the hit. With Otmar, he seemed to be almost gleeful to do Rossi's dirty work and probably deserves all the blame for how he went about doing it.

Re unreliability, Otmar went on to say (in that very same quote): "But we must understand what has happened. We have to solve all the little problems, so that they don't reappear in the car." So he did in fact accept blame for things that were in the team's control. You have to remember this came in the context of Alonso incessantly complaining about the team costing him an ever-growing (somewhat exaggerated) number of points (so much so it became a running joke at Alonso's expense) and Alonso pointing out that "Esteban's car is always reliable". When your driver is constantly undercutting the team in the media, and the media keeps asking you to comment on your driver's criticism, sooner or later the boss has to stick up for the other 500 employees a little bit. Hard to blame Otmar for this one.

As for Otmar's comments about Alonso's age, it was always about the reality that eventually Alonso's age would catch up with him, and the team wanted some flexibility for when that happened. I have seen nothing about expecting Alonso to "prove himself". If you go back and look at the quotes you'll see it was all pretty reasonable stuff. Even Alonso didn't criticise Otmar about it at the time. Again, hard to blame Otmar here.

I haven't seen anything gleeful about Otmar doing Rossi's dirty work - maybe your interpretation is coloured by already disliking him.

There was no point in mentioning random incidents when 95% of point loss was due to reliability. Wolff literally calls his car a shitbox on radio for providing Lewis with the 2nd fastest car. Alonso was 100% right that they and he specifically lost 50-60 points due to reliability.

If you feel Alonso needed to prove himself then maybe you always disliked him. It's a ridiculous notion based on his past and current for the moment performance. It was all a power move by Rossi to keep jerking around both drivers.

He implies Alonso left for money in DTS when it was clearly because of lack of a second year in contract. Claimed they had a contract with Piastri when they didn't. Publically forced him to take the seat after Alonso's exit. You can google a long list of quotes about Piastri after that.

[diffuser]

I'd like to know: Why, prior to Otmar and Permane were canned, was Pat fry looking for a new job? Why would he take a job with Williams, that's so much farther down the rabbit hole, than stay at Alpine?

[AR3-GP]

I'd like to know: Why, prior to Otmar and Permane were canned, was Pat fry looking for a new job? Why would he take a job with Williams, that's so much farther down the rabbit hole, than stay at Alpine?

Good question.

[FW17]

I'd like to know: Why, prior to Otmar and Permane were canned, was Pat fry looking for a new job? Why would he take a job with Williams, that's so much farther down the rabbit hole, than stay at Alpine?

Probably heard within the company that he was getting canned, he believed it and went hunting for a job, while the others, one of whom has seen many such culling, thought they can play the usual game of pandering to new management and point at their enemies of not doing a good job.

[diffuser]

I'd like to know: Why, prior to Otmar and Permane were canned, was Pat fry looking for a new job? Why would he take a job with Williams, that's so much farther down the rabbit hole, than stay at Alpine?

Probably heard within the company that he was getting canned, he believed it and went hunting for a job, while the others, one of whom has seen many such culling, thought they can play the usual game of pandering to new management and point at their enemies of not doing a good job.

I doudt that, not even Otmar was gonna get let go. He only got let go cause he stuck by Permane. Pat Fry has always been a good technical resource and never a trouble maker. Although, his cars have only ever won the championship at McLaren 2 years after Newey left there. It was Hamilton's first championship.

[peewon]

I'd like to know: Why, prior to Otmar and Permane were canned, was Pat fry looking for a new job? Why would he take a job with Williams, that's so much farther down the rabbit hole, than stay at Alpine?

Probably heard within the company that he was getting canned, he believed it and went hunting for a job, while the others, one of whom has seen many such culling, thought they can play the usual game of pandering to new management and point at their enemies of not doing a good job.

I doudt that, not even Otmar was gonna get let go. He only got let go cause he stuck by Permane. Pat Fry has always been a good technical resource and never a trouble maker. Although, his cars have only ever won the championship at McLaren 2 years after Newey left there. It was Hamilton's first championship.

If the reports of Alpine's PU deficit are accurate then they have done as good a job as anyone not named Red Bull on the aerodynamics side. The car was in contention for pole in Australia last year which basically has no straights. Usually to make up for that PU, they wouldve had to run compromised setup as well. I dont think anyone look at Pat Fry and say he was the problem. Either he wanted out himself, which makes sense since Alpine/Renault has been a clown show since coming back, or there is some serious scapegoating.

For Viry to take as much time as they did and still come up with this PU, its hard to look beyond that or the biggest objective reasons or their mediocrity. Rossi was the wrong choice and so was Otmar (besides bringing in BWT money), but there is a lot of throwing the baby out with the bath water going on at Alpine. And if the management believes that increased Francophilia is the solution to this situation then the cycle will just repeat itself and it'll be hilarious to watch.

[mclaren111]

I'd like to know: Why, prior to Otmar and Permane were canned, was Pat fry looking for a new job? Why would he take a job with Williams, that's so much farther down the rabbit hole, than stay at Alpine?

Probably heard within the company that he was getting canned, he believed it and went hunting for a job, while the others, one of whom has seen many such culling, thought they can play the usual game of pandering to new management and point at their enemies of not doing a good job.

I doudt that, not even Otmar was gonna get let go. He only got let go cause he stuck by Permane. Pat Fry has always been a good technical resource and never a trouble maker. Although, his cars have only ever won the championship at McLaren 2 years after Newey left there. It was Hamilton's first championship.

Have to give Par Fry a lot of credit for McLaren's much improved 2019 car...

[Juzh]

Probably heard within the company that he was getting canned, he believed it and went hunting for a job, while the others, one of whom has seen many such culling, thought they can play the usual game of pandering to new management and point at their enemies of not doing a good job.

I doudt that, not even Otmar was gonna get let go. He only got let go cause he stuck by Permane. Pat Fry has always been a good technical resource and never a trouble maker. Although, his cars have only ever won the championship at McLaren 2 years after Newey left there. It was Hamilton's first championship.

If the reports of Alpine's PU deficit are accurate then they have done as good a job as anyone not named Red Bull on the aerodynamics side. The car was in contention for pole in Australia last year which basically has no straights. Usually to make up for that PU, they wouldve had to run compromised setup as well.

They're overblown. Renault in 2023 is at most 20 hp down on ferrari and around 15 on merc/honda, if that. That is a tangible amount but I don't believe they're 30 hp down as claimed. Back in 2018 when renault was 40-50 hp down for real it was immediately obvious to anyone, now it took half a year for someone to notice.

As for australia having no straights, did you miss the race last year? Also, alonso wasn't in it for pole, that's a myth. He'd end up like 0,6s off.

[peewon]

I doudt that, not even Otmar was gonna get let go. He only got let go cause he stuck by Permane. Pat Fry has always been a good technical resource and never a trouble maker. Although, his cars have only ever won the championship at McLaren 2 years after Newey left there. It was Hamilton's first championship.

If the reports of Alpine's PU deficit are accurate then they have done as good a job as anyone not named Red Bull on the aerodynamics side. The car was in contention for pole in Australia last year which basically has no straights. Usually to make up for that PU, they wouldve had to run compromised setup as well.

They're overblown. Renault in 2023 is at most 20 hp down on ferrari and around 15 on merc/honda, if that. That is a tangible amount but I don't believe they're 30 hp down as claimed. Back in 2018 when renault was 40-50 hp down for real it was immediately obvious to anyone, now it took half a year for someone to notice.

As for australia having no straights, did you miss the race last year? Also, alonso wasn't in it for pole, that's a myth. He'd end up like 0,6s off.

Everything I said still applies if the deficit was 20 HP and not 30. And this isnt being claimed by rivals or Alpine but estimated from the data by the FIA themselves. Alonso was near abouts or on track or provisional pole in '22 when he crashed due to hydraulic failure. Whether he got it or not is immaterial, it showed that the car was competitive in aero efficiency. If Alpine PU had 20-30 more HP they would be solidly amongst the Merc-AM-Ferrari-Mclaren group if not at the front of it. They are not a million miles behind as is.

[Juzh]

If the reports of Alpine's PU deficit are accurate then they have done as good a job as anyone not named Red Bull on the aerodynamics side. The car was in contention for pole in Australia last year which basically has no straights. Usually to make up for that PU, they wouldve had to run compromised setup as well.

They're overblown. Renault in 2023 is at most 20 hp down on ferrari and around 15 on merc/honda, if that. That is a tangible amount but I don't believe they're 30 hp down as claimed. Back in 2018 when renault was 40-50 hp down for real it was immediately obvious to anyone, now it took half a year for someone to notice.

As for australia having no straights, did you miss the race last year? Also, alonso wasn't in it for pole, that's a myth. He'd end up like 0,6s off.

Everything I said still applies if the deficit was 20 HP and not 30. And this isnt being claimed by rivals or Alpine but estimated from the data by the FIA themselves. Alonso was near abouts or on track or provisional pole in '22 when he crashed due to hydraulic failure. Whether he got it or not is immaterial, it showed that the car was competitive in aero efficiency. If Alpine PU had 20-30 more HP they would be solidly amongst the Merc-AM-Ferrari-Mclaren group if not at the front of it. They are not a million miles behind as is.

No mate, renault is behind in hp only now in 2023, in 2022 they were absolutely fine. And go rewatch 2022 australian gp. Alonso wasn't ever gonna challenge leclerc for pole that day. With a perfect lap perhaps P2, but even that's pushing it. What triggered all this pole mania back then was his purple S2 just before his car broke down, but everyone forgot alpine was slow all weekend in S3, to the tune of half a second or more compared to ferrari, which is logical given they decided to run with trimmed wings compared to everyone else.

[AR3-GP]

Yes it was clarified that the other manufacturers made “reliability tweaks” and ended up with double digit hp improvements….go figure.

Renault who prioritized actual realiability tweaks, did not make the same gains.

[diffuser]

Yes it was clarified that the other manufacturers made “reliability tweaks” and ended up with double digit hp improvements….go figure.

Renault who prioritised actual reliability tweaks, did not make the same gains.

Everybody fixed "actual Reliability tweaks". Alpine did upgrade their piston rings. so they should be able to run more boost.
I understand why the other teams don't want to let them equalise. Where were they in 2021 when they ran the OLD PU and left the NEW one on the Dyno? It's been a history of nickle and diming with them. Too conservative. You could have almost set an alarm, back in 2021, knowing they would do this in 2023.

[peewon]

The writing was on the wall when they failed to bring in the new PU in 2021. When going into a radically new aero regulation set and facing a PU performance freeze following year, it would be invaluable to get a season under your belt with a new PU to iron out the kinks and focus resources on the new rule set. Any team worth its salt would've done that. Covid was obviously a factor but Renault had only had 8 years to get it right before that.