Nothing is over, yet?

[WhiteBlue]

What is actually the disagreement?

Following the decision of the World Council on 24 June to revert to the pre-29 April version of the 2010 F1 Sporting and Technical Regulations, the FIA today met the teams which have entered the 2010 Championship to seek their agreement to these changes.

All changes have now been agreed subject only to the maintenance of the minimum weight at 620 kg and the signing of a legally binding agreement between all the teams competing in 2010 to reduce costs to the level of the early 1990s within two years, as promised by the FOTA representative in Paris on 24 June.

On the substance it appears that the increase of the minimum weight is supposed to be scrapped. As KERS is not going to happen according to FOTA this is a logical step. The other point is about codifying the FOTA resource restrictions in order to go back to 90ies spending.

During the course of this meeting, the team managers were informed by Mr Charlie Whiting of the FIA that, contrary to previous agreements, the eight FOTA teams are not currently entered into the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship and have no voting rights in relation to the technical and sporting regulations thereof.

This is unclear. How can the FOTA teams be invited and then not been given a vote? Are both sides talking about a different thing here?

The eight FOTA teams were invited to attend the meeting to discuss their further proposals for 2010.

This sounds as if the non FOTA five were exclusively asked to vote on the acceptance of theParis agreement. They had not been party to that agreement but were granted an entry prior to the agreement. So it makes some sense to tie up the loose ends there first. Williams have previously indicated that they would agree to the Paris compromise if the resource/cost issue was codified to their satisfaction. This might be the explanation for the denial of voting rights to FOTA. They had already agreed to the Paris compromise and only the non FOTA five needed to come into the agreement. If this is the explanation I must say that I find this war of words totally foolish. There seem to be little or no disagreement in the substance and a lot of bad PR to let the other side look worse than they are actually doing.

[Michiba]

so is there still any chance of a breakway series?

Just read this: http://pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news ... t_id=38331

seems like FOTA can still call there cars F1 cars

[Ciro Pabón]

As I see it, there is no chance of a breakaway series, nor this is a dispute about egos.

It is about money.

All the comments about Mosley or Montezemolo being monsters (aren't we all, monsters and angels? ) are naive, from my point of view.

FIA continues in its logical course of action, trying to use the teams brought hurriedly into the championship to undermine a recent, strong syndicate of teams.

On the other hand the teams are determined to take away from FIA the right to decide the new rules, a valiant task.

As I've stated before, I think that in the end there will be a consensus among FIA and FOTA. Expect many more press releases until FIA president election. Then, power will be measured more clearly.

I think FOTA will support a new candidate for president. I also think this candidate (if he appears) doesn't have too much of a chance, FIA electors are in the same boat as Mosley, it's also logical for them to support the current president. After all, FIA authority is under attack.

They MIGHT reach a new name, as a compromise. Maybe (as is usual in these kind of situations) an unexpected third name (not Mosley nor FOTA still-to-be-known candidate) might be the winner.

If I were a FIA Council member, I would be trying to reach compromises right and left: this might be the best course for a person who tries to position himself as a possible "middle of the road" next president.

Meanwhile, FOM has moved the issues well away from money split, which is at the bottom of all the kilowatts of energy spent in Internet pages.

This money-split theme will come back, as soon as technicalities (technical issues) are solved.

I think a most intese dispute will arise around October or November, so the ones among you that are tired of this kind of threads will undoubtedly become really weary before this year is over.

Be patient, the tale is more or less entertaining.

This is what real life is about: money; dirty, sweet, useless, esential money, the true fuel of racing dreams.

[Michiba]

I tend to think it is more about power than money. FOTA wants power to have a say in the technical regulations, Max wants power for his own egotistical reasons, citing too much power from the manufacturers. I'm not saying there isn't ego on the side of FOTA, there inherently is and thats why there is a dispute.

I really hope it's not too late for a breakaway series. Sure it will damage the sport, but in the long term it would be for the better.

[The FOZ]

Jesus, Ciro, that's about as well put as I've seen it - anywhere.

I think there's far more garbage in the background than we will ever hear of, neither side is completely in the right, and truth be told, much of it will simply dissolve when the main issues are dealt with.

It's like a divorce...I don't think a woman would ever want a divorce because her husband doesn't put the toilet seat down, but I could sure see her bringing that up as a point of grievance in divorce proceedings.

[Fil]

Following the decision of the World Council on 24 June to revert to the pre-29 April version of the 2010 F1 Sporting and Technical Regulations, the FIA today met the teams which have entered the 2010 Championship to seek their agreement to these changes.

All changes have now been agreed subject only to the maintenance of the minimum weight at 620 kg and the signing of a legally binding agreement between all the teams competing in 2010 to reduce costs to the level of the early 1990s within two years, as promised by the FOTA representative in Paris on 24 June.

The FOTA/FIA agreement of June 24 to maintain this season's rules was agreed on by the 5 confirmed teams?
- so FOTA got their way then

they got the rules they wanted, but for a symbolic gesture of not being the teams to vote it in, ran out of the room crying..

i'm pro-FOTA but that just seems egotistically silly on their behalf.


i have a feeling the true issue was the FIA attempting to have a contract signed, forcing FOTA to reduce costs to "early 1990's levels" within 2 years.
i am highly suspicious FOTA ever intended to make this promise a reality.

[bill shoe]

May I be cart-in-front-of-the-horse here?

If FOTA starts a new series where will they get tires? Bridgestone-Firestone (same company) did supply both CART and the Indy Racing League during that racing war. However I'm guessing Bridgestone's current exclusive agreement with the FIA for Formula 1 prevents Bridgestone from supplying a competing series.

Michelin? They would love to return to top level open-wheel racing without the FIA being involved. However, their pretense for leaving F1 was that tire competition was no longer allowed and they would not compete in a series with a spec tire. So if Michelin supplied tires for FOTA it would have to be in a series with open tire competiton. But the manufacturers don't really want a competitive situation for the most important part of the car for the simple reason that the manufacturers don't make tires. They would rather have competition between less important components like engines because they make engines. Maybe the series would be open to tire competition in theory but FOTA would let it be known that only Michelin was welcome.

Avon? They supply tires to vintage high-level formula cars, some with high power and downforce. I don't know anything about whether or not those tires are any good. Also, it would be a step down for FOTA's intended image as the most high-tech series to use a small company like Avon.

Other companies like Pirelli or Goodyear face a bit of the Avon problem, meaning even if they could create a functional and safe tire it would not be desireable to FOTA from an image point of view.

There are plenty of engines, wind tunnels, tracks, drivers, TV networks, etc. There are only a few entities that could do the tires. What's FOTA's game plan?

[bill shoe]

An additional tire question here.

FOTA's position now is that 2009 rules should apply next year, so KERS will theoretically be allowed. However FOTA has made it clear they don't actually want KERS next year. In contrast the FIA does want KERS and I think they want it even apart from their squabble with FOTA.

This explains today's dispute over the 15 kgs (or whatever) change in the minimum weight. Nobody cares about the 15 kgs itself. The point is FIA wants the 15 kgs to make KERS more functional and FOTA wants to prevent the extra 15 kgs so they can ensure that KERS remains ineffective.

The other part (probably the major part) of KERS effectiveness is the grip/size of front vs rear tires. This year's tires have too much front width/grip so narrower fronts are planned for next year. This will make KERS and its rearward weight more viable.

The current plan is for Bridgestone to make narrower tires in 2010, but is this considered a rule? If so was it "agreed" before the famous April 29 date? Or is tire dimension not an official rule and Bridgestone just shows up at the track with something that has presumably been approved by the FIA?

FOTA will want wide front tires in 2010 to make their anti-KERS position effective. The FIA will want the narrower fronts to make their pro-KERS position effective. Anybody hear anything about FOTA's position on tire width?

[gcdugas]

The current plan is for Bridgestone to make narrower tires in 2010, but is this considered a rule? If so was it "agreed" before the famous April 29 date? Or is tire dimension not an official rule and Bridgestone just shows up at the track with something that has presumably been approved by the FIA?

FOTA will want wide front tires in 2010 to make their anti-KERS position effective. The FIA will want the narrower fronts to make their pro-KERS position effective. Anybody hear anything about FOTA's position on tire width?

The rear tires are just a bit too narrow (or the fronts are just a bit too wide) because of the rear wing size reduction, not KERS.

Michelin would be very glad to snub the FIA and provide the FOTA GPWC with tires. Remember all the FIA would be left with is three Cosworth teams plus two more as Williams and Force India would also have to shop for Cosworths as FOTA teams would buy out their contracts to prevent the FIA series from having any prestige.

Power is the same as money. Ciro's post about breaking or diluting the strength of FOTA is right. For the life of me I can't see why the teams are hanging around. 90+% of the public supports the FOTA position and are tired of Max and Bernie. FOTA cannot do one single thing to improve the show, choose more favorably located circuits etc. unless they break away from both FOM and the FIA. This is ridiculous. Until the Max and Bernie show is dispensed with everyone (the fans, the teams, the promoters, the circuit owners, the sponsors etc.) will suffer. We were close back in 2004 with the GPMA but they were divided and conquered. Now the same tactic is at work again. Just get out and embarrass the FIA/FOM dying relic by excellence, fan friendliness, cheaper tickets, better cars, real competition, real rules, real transparent governance etc. Be done with these two clowns.

[Fil]

During the course of this meeting, the team managers were informed by Mr Charlie Whiting of the FIA that, contrary to previous agreements, the eight FOTA teams are not currently entered into the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship and have no voting rights in relation to the technical and sporting regulations thereof.

FIA's previous claims of Ferrari, Red Bull & Torro Rosso being contractually signed up, as Williams & Force India are, seems to have been forgotten!

Another win for FOTA

[WhiteBlue]

FOTA's position now is that 2009 rules should apply next year, so KERS will theoretically be allowed. However FOTA has made it clear they don't actually want KERS next year. In contrast the FIA does want KERS and I think they want it even apart from their squabble with FOTA.

This explains today's dispute over the 15 kgs (or whatever) change in the minimum weight. Nobody cares about the 15 kgs itself. The point is FIA wants the 15 kgs to make KERS more functional and FOTA wants to prevent the extra 15 kgs so they can ensure that KERS remains ineffective.

I fail to see the logic here. The non FOTA five apparently voted to drop the minimum weight increase which was championed by BMW to get better weight distribution for KERS cars with heavy drivers. Prior to that FoTA has made it clear that they want KERS to disappear next year. So I see this as a move to avoid additional ballast. One has to consider that the average weight will increase anyway with the refuelling ban.

[timbo]

During the course of this meeting, the team managers were informed by Mr Charlie Whiting of the FIA that, contrary to previous agreements, the eight FOTA teams are not currently entered into the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship and have no voting rights in relation to the technical and sporting regulations thereof.

FIA's previous claims of Ferrari, Red Bull & Torro Rosso being contractually signed up, as Williams & Force India are, seems to have been forgotten!

Another win for FOTA

Yeah, quite an interesting detail.

[gibells]

"During the course of this meeting, the team managers were informed by Mr Charlie Whiting of the FIA that, contrary to previous agreements, the eight FOTA teams are not currently entered into the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship and have no voting rights in relation to the technical and sporting regulations thereof,"

There is no excuse for this. These are the rantings of a dictator. Luca was on to something there.


That has got to be the perfect opportunity for FOTA to just turn and walk away. Start a new series or even just organise a few races for next year before some full plans can be set into place.

[djos]

"During the course of this meeting, the team managers were informed by Mr Charlie Whiting of the FIA that, contrary to previous agreements, the eight FOTA teams are not currently entered into the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship and have no voting rights in relation to the technical and sporting regulations thereof,"

There is no excuse for this. These are the rantings of a dictator. Luca was on to something there.


That has got to be the perfect opportunity for FOTA to just turn and walk away. Start a new series or even just organise a few races for next year before some full plans can be set into place.

I agree, Max and his retarded power games have got to go!! I sincerely hope Ari is able to win the next FIA election!

[MegaHurts]

who do you reckon they mean in the last paragraph of this article?

http://pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news ... t_id=38331

Max? I reckon it was, I really do.

I'm sure there is another agender here and my suspicions are it is to kill off FOM/CVC's comercial rights. If FOTA can set up another championship, have the FIA run it, which they are obliged by EU law to do, and still call thier cars F1 cars then who cares what the championship is called?

The only difference whould be where the money went along with the ability to charge the tracks/promoters a lot less and race where they want.

hmmm, bit conspiracy theory ish, but maybe FOM/CVC were behind the filming of Max's s&m session and this is his way of hurting them back.