Nothing is over, yet?

[Richard]

there needs to be a hard budget cap and open regs for any creativity to truely come back into F1.

I agree in principle, but it's utopian. It would be a nightmare to administer. It would also be complicated by the mix of manufacturer and independent teams.

It is easier to limit the number of people and things at the race track, the amount of testing, etc.

The ban on testing has massively closed up the grid. Last year, Ferrari and McL would have had enough track testing to iron out their faults. Without that testing, it is possible for a small band of clever designers to outwit those two massive teams.

[Richard]

I wonder, does Bernie own this T-shirt company? Nah, couldn't be . . . Could it?

Yup. FOM is sooo 2008. Topical T-shirts are the way to make a billion in 2010.

Did you not realise that it was Bernie who pushed Obama for the White House simply so he could get T-shirts sold ? Some say he also realised that a dead Jacko would sell more shirts than a live one.

[donskar]

there needs to be a hard budget cap and open regs for any creativity to truely come back into F1.

I agree in principle, but it's utopian. It would be a nightmare to administer. It would also be complicated by the mix of manufacturer and independent teams.

It is easier to limit the number of people and things at the race track, the amount of testing, etc.

The ban on testing has massively closed up the grid. Last year, Ferrari and McL would have had enough track testing to iron out their faults. Without that testing, it is possible for a small band of clever designers to outwit those two massive teams.

Me too! Seriously, this is an issue without solution. But, Richard, it IS possible "for a small band of clever designers to outwit those two massive teams," but let's not forget that this year's Brawn is the end result of a massive effort by Honda. Look at the opposite scenario -- a "massive team" DOES get it right from the very start. Then the smaller teams won't be able to test changes and will have a harder time catching up.

[WhiteBlue]

http://f1.automoto365.com/news/f1/techn ... 808-1.html

Friday press conference of the technical directors of FOTA and Williams for non FOTA. They seem to agree that the walk out will not prevent a solution if progress is made on the Concord and the cost document.

[gcdugas]

and that is why Ferrari spent over $50 mil on "frozen" engines in 2007 right... teams with a financial advantage will always use it, and with todays closed regs it overpowers the creativity of other teams with less money.. that is what we have seen over the last couple years even with the present cost restrictions... there needs to be a hard budget cap and open regs for any creativity to truely come back into F1. The teams dont have any state secrets to hide as gcdugas may suggest, they just want to keep the financial advantage that they have... we see with their wish to maintain the closed regs of 2009 indefinitely that they dont give a flying --- about technical innovation or the "DNA of F1"

"Resource limitation" is bullshit... we have seen absolutely no type of financial prudence on the part of the major teams, that is except for HONDA... even with today's economic recession, if the Max offered to unfreeze the engines the major teams would jump at it and spend huge amounts of money for minimal returns, much more money than what they spent on KERS.

OK wiseguy, lets stipulate that Ferrari spent 50M on their engine. It is now frozen and homologated. It doesn't cost STR anywhere near 50M for their customer engines which are identicle.

[gcdugas]

The non-FOTA teams are very glad that FOTA exists. Presently they are without a Concorde Agreement and stand to get a paltry sum under the MOU from a few years ago. The new teams are hoping FOTA gets a much better deal for everyone and they cheer the bargaining strength of FOTA as there will also be no two tier Concorde distribution scheme either. So the new teams should be happy to agree to whatever technical regs that FOTA wants to introduce.

BTW, whatever happened to the regs being the duty of the F1 commission (apart from Max) as was agreed in Paris? Why is Max still pushing his dopey budget cap when all this was settled in Paris? Will he ever go away?

[Richard]

and that is why Ferrari spent over $50 mil on "frozen" engines in 2007 right... teams with a financial advantage will always use it, and with todays closed regs it overpowers the creativity of other teams with less money..

OK wiseguy, lets stipulate that Ferrari spent 50M on their engine. It is now frozen and homologated. It doesn't cost STR anywhere near 50M for their customer engines which are identicle.

Norbert Haug confirmed in BBC interview before quali that Brawn have exactly the same engine spec as McLaren... and I recall Ross Brawn saying he pays E5m.

So if Merc/McL spend say 10m development, how does that get factored into the budget cap?

[donskar]

Something (potentially) very big here:
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/moto ... 41782.html

Key passages:

Fota have given Bernie Ecclestone and CVC Capital Partners, the holders of the sport's commercial rights, until this weekend to indicate their willingness to go along with their proposed breakaway grand prix championship, unless things can be sorted out for all three parties to agree a lasting peace with the FIA. Fota do not want to wait any longer to start up their series, if talks with the FIA remain at their current impasse.

unconfirmed reports suggest that Fota have given FIA president Max Mosley a letter of resignation to sign, again with a deadline of this weekend.

All of Fota's manufacturer teams have confirmed their belief that they had been granted unconditional entries to the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship following the agreement ratified by the World Motor Sport Council in Paris on 24 June. And that, contrary to the FIA's recent suggestion that they fully expected to have the right to express opinions in Wednesday's Technical Working Group meeting.

[gcdugas]

Something (potentially) very big here:
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/moto ... 41782.html

Key passages:

unconfirmed reports suggest that Fota have given FIA president Max Mosley a letter of resignation to sign, again with a deadline of this weekend.

It is always in poor taste to say "I told you so" but I TOLD YOU SO.

Here is where I said this

Max can call people “certified half-wits” and “loonies” but if ever an ill word is spoken of him he shoots off. He is clearly a vindictive hostile man. But he made a blunder here…

FOTA “not schmota” are done with Max. Enough with him. Nothing is signed yet. Max will only add to his humiliation. Now I am sure FOTA will required Max’s head on a platter in the form of a signed document before they ink any deals for 2010 and beyond. Max should just have absorbed the comments and disappeared with what little dignity remains. Now it will be a formal beheading or no deal. Stupid Max, real stupid.

Here is the contract requiring you to step down immediately Max... please sign here... OK, just sign one more copy, initial here and here, date it and look up, smile for the camera. That's a good boy Max. LOL

Max won't sign and we will finally be done with the FIA. Put it down.

[donskar]

Max won't sign and we will finally be done with the FIA. Put it down.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assuming you're right, what does your crystal ball say will happen then?

FOTA can't force him to sign. Technically, CVC and Bernie can't either (IMO).

[WhiteBlue]

It would be extremely stupid by FOTA to issue an ultimatum to Max Mosley in writing. That would be exactly the kind of amunition he could use at the FIA to convince the clubs that FOTA wants to take over the running of the FIA. I cannot believe that this rumor is based on fact.

[gcdugas]

It would be extremely stupid by FOTA to issue an ultimatum to Max Mosley in writing. That would be exactly the kind of amunition he could use at the FIA to convince the clubs that FOTA wants to take over the running of the FIA. I cannot believe that this rumor is based on fact.

Or simply that they are ready to dispense with them entirely.

[gcdugas]

Max won't sign and we will finally be done with the FIA. Put it down.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assuming you're right, what does your crystal ball say will happen then?

FOTA can't force him to sign. Technically, CVC and Bernie can't either (IMO).

The FIA will simply be removed from the equation and a few phrases will change such as "FIA F1 World Championship" will change to "F1 World Championship" if they stick with CVC/Bernie or even GPWC if they go it alone. If you think about it, what does the FIA really do anyway? It would take very little staffing to organize new stewards, come up with some bylaws and procedures etc. Since they are familiar with the way things are now it is a simple matter of retaining the good ideas and rejecting the bad ideas about the current system. I am sure that they have a wish list anyway. Now they simply codify it. The FIA could be replaced in a month's time. FOM/CVC could be replaced in 6 month's time as they do more. The same rule applies, keep the good ideas, reject the bad ones, codify an existing wish list. Get Red Bull's marketing people (the best in the world with more contacts than any other) to start the promotional campaign on Monday.

[kilcoo316]

Fota have given Bernie Ecclestone and CVC Capital Partners, the holders of the sport's commercial rights, until this weekend to indicate their willingness to go along with their proposed breakaway grand prix championship

Why bother with CVC?!?!


They are leeching off the system without adding to it!!!

Ditch them, and you can set your own tracks and ticket prices...

Once again, FOTA are using half measures which will not solve the problem.


What bit of CLEAN BREAK do they not get?

[donskar]

Fota have given Bernie Ecclestone and CVC Capital Partners, the holders of the sport's commercial rights, until this weekend to indicate their willingness to go along with their proposed breakaway grand prix championship

Why bother with CVC?!?!


They are leeching off the system without adding to it!!!

Ditch them, and you can set your own tracks and ticket prices...

Once again, FOTA are using half measures which will not solve the problem.


What bit of CLEAN BREAK do they not get?

I agree with you, but remember: huge corporations tend to be quite conservative and slow to embrace significant change. The devil you know . . .