2023 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[mwillems]

Regarding culture at RBR, if you look at the way Horner/Marko behave and speak and how they discard drivers ruthlessly, I do tend to agree that it is not a very healthy space at least for drivers there. You have to be VERY mentally strong, and I'm not sure Lando can deal with Marko.

Lando is more critical on himself than Marko could ever be. Please don't be miss-guided by the way British media portrays RedBull and their culture. No team can be as successful as they are without a strong and positive culture. They have good retention, very high diversity numbers, and are not afraid of taking risks - which is a strong indicator of a positive culture.

This is something that Red Bull and various drivers themselves have spoken about so I'm not suggesting anything new, Horner himself has also said that. To survive RB you have to be so mentally strong because the pressure and feedback, in particular from Marko is brutal. Also it is one thing to be critical about yourself, which is much easier to accept, than someone else laying into you, especially if they are as blunt and direct as Marko.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong, just that I think Lando would struggle.

[mwillems]

Regarding culture at RBR, if you look at the way Horner/Marko behave and speak and how they discard drivers ruthlessly, I do tend to agree that it is not a very healthy space at least for drivers there. You have to be VERY mentally strong, and I'm not sure Lando can deal with Marko.

I also do not have a good feeling when I see Marko on TV, but is this is measure or real picture? I guess this is where our armchair expertise simply comes to a limit. He is still the most successful coach/strategist in F1 who brought the most drivers in the last 15 years into F1 with still the best young driver program.

And F1 drivers need to be mentally strong and they are. Max and Lewis gave us one of the best WDC fights over years/decades, just because they were mentally strong. On the other hand we saw Schumacher fail because he was not mentally strong. And not Steiner (who is a real a******) broke him. It was Magnussen who broke him by just performing fair and square and not being the a****** he can be.

If Lando would be /is not as mentally strong as he is, he could neither face Max or Lewis nor stand against Oscar. But he is. We saw this in several races, we see this on rock solid performances. I think he has no issue to work under Steiner, Marko, Brown or any other difficult person.

Besides this...I fear you are on a completely wrong path. Similar to Merc, RedBull now has a quite stable team around the drivers and trackside performance. Horner, Wheatley, Rocquelin, Damerum....all are there for 15? years. Sorry, that does not speak for any toxic culture. In contrast, it is exactly this stability that teams like Ferrari hurts...also at McLaren, with Paul James gone there is besides Stella, who moved through the line of command like a hot knife through butter...no one from the old guys?

Yeah see above I guess as I would answer the same. It is what has been said by the team themselves that he is very hard.

In terms of Landos mental strenth, I'm not sure it is quite as black and white as this. He is able to perform to a high level in F1. But there are other aspects to this. Does he have the mental strength to do it consistently, and not just on 2 out of 3 races, or 3 out of 4? Verstappen does it 10/10. Does he have the strength to come back from difficulty, has he had to deal with the intensity that exists at RB? Internally and Externally?

Then there is the levels of pressure he is under. He hasn't been under pressure since his first few years and is only now starting to come under pressure again and even then, it is fairly mild right now. It is also something he has been very open about in terms of his own mental health. So I don't think this comes from nowhere.

My armchair perspective gives me a little cause for concern over Lando when the real pressure is on. I've seen him struggle before and I'm sure as Oscar steps up we are going to see what Lando is made of, I've seen Lando having more off days since Oscar started being very close to him, but that could well be coincidence. Time will tell. He's not going to have any other choice but to pick it up though with Oscar chasing.

But driving for Red Bull is totally different. Sink or swim and everything is at stake in his career. Title contender or defacto number 2 depending on your performances and a tarnish on your record you will take years to shake. Perez is done now, Verstappen has crushed him by being the relentless driving robot that he is and choosing to "punish" him and belittle him when he isn't happy with his "wingman". And if he was ten years younger he'd still never get another title shot.

Would Lando survive the pressure of Verstappen as his teammate, losing a lot and then Marko and Horner offering feedback ? What happens when it doesn't go his way for a while?

My gut feeling is he will buckle and sink.

[FittingMechanics]

Agree. A couple of years ago O'Ward, Palou and Herta were driving McLaren cars, right? Herta is definitely performing mediocre. I don't see speed and stability. At least O'Ward shows speed. Nothing to say about Palou, two-time IndyCar champion?

Palou is great and I am quite sad he didn't switch to McLaren Indy for next year. So I don't think he is a reliable option going forward, he seems to have broken a deal he made with Zak and is being sued by McLaren. But if he wasn't, I'd love for him to get a chance in McLaren F1 if Lando or Oscar leaves.

No, I think this idea was completely dropped. There is only one driver in Indycar driving circles around the rest with a glimpse of a chance in F1.

I don't think it is an idea, but if one of the drivers leave, they will need a new driver. But I forgot (as others pointed out), O'Ward does not have a super license and it doesn't seem possible to get one fast.

[Macklaren]

Re Palou, he's fast but for a guy to have 2 major contract issues in 2 years makes me question his ethics. And this is not a Piastri like situation either, where it was clearly his employer's fault...

[BMMR61]

The continuing block on Indy drivers getting a look in F1 is to me a little troubling. Montoya disproved the lie (wasn’t he fantastic) and Sir Frank missed the signs with Dixon. In no way do I think Indy is the ideal proving ground but Palou is clearly a better prospect than Logan, Pato is very quick but needs better mentoring. The last five years since Lando, George and Alex came in have been a barren yield of the F2/3 escalator. There’s coming a time when some ‘deadwood’ will need culling from the F1 cast. The way RB kill and/or stifle their academy drivers is worse than Alpine’s poor promotion courage. Stroll, Mag, Tsu, Sarg, Zhou, Bot, Perez, are names that come to mind when I question whether the driver has either passed or failed to reach an acceptable peak. Lewis and Fernando are still worthy treasures of F1 but surely nearing the end of their fabulous careers.That’s NINE drivers that will need replacement in the next few years - in my opinion. I can’t see the F2 elevator providing the talent pool necessary, an issue that has resulted in so many drivers who haven’t made an impact when given their chance. If Indy is given the chance to be another pathway, more talent will emerge ready to take on the huge demands of F1 that F3 and F2 can’t adequately fulfill.

McLaren can feel justifiably proud of their early promotion and development of its current two drivers. RedBull do give young drivers opportunities to get into a team that is trundling around at the back of the pack which is something but really it’s mainly the smaller teams giving the rookies a go.

[FittingMechanics]

Re Palou, he's fast but for a guy to have 2 major contract issues in 2 years makes me question his ethics. And this is not a Piastri like situation either, where it was clearly his employer's fault...

Exactly the reason I would not entertain hiring him.

[trinidefender]

If Lando leaves I can think of two names that are championship winning material even in their 40s. Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso. I would take any of them or both of them if needed.

I wouldn't take Alonso. And all because of his specific driving style. It requires the car to understeer, which it compensates for with a sharp movement of the steering wheel. This is one of the weak points of the car, which I think myself brought Alonso.

That's not really true. While it can be said he likes a car with a very slight understand bias it's not as extreme as his championship winning car years made it seem. The reason he drove those cars that way was because of the unique characteristics of the front tyres. The car struggled to get the fronts up to temperature so Alonso adopted this unique driving style of a rapid turn in which caused huge understeer initially but put slot of energy and heat into the front tyres causing them to grip up quickly.

If you watch his onboards now you'll see his driving style isn't biased to an understanding car any more than many of the other drivers on the grid.

[basti313]

But driving for Red Bull is totally different. Sink or swim and everything is at stake in his career.

I am surprised by this take. I totally agree with the "issue" Lando is facing with pressure. But this pressure comes from the same point:
If Oscar beats him by 0.3sec in the remaining season...there is no RedBull, Ferrari or Merc seat for him. There is a McLaren seat with a ? written on it in case this happens.
I am surprised by the differences that are made between the teams.

Re Palou, he's fast but for a guy to have 2 major contract issues in 2 years makes me question his ethics. And this is not a Piastri like situation either, where it was clearly his employer's fault...

Is it? I am not an expert on the Palou situation, but I would still see two points:
- If there was a second deal for Indy I still do not know what was the idea behind. I mean...at some point McLaren would have needed to buy him out of the contract....I still did not hear a conclusive story why there were two Indy contracts, it can not be that stupid...or can it?
- The F1 deal was done and dusted with McLaren announcing Schumacher as reserve. I do not understand the discussion this year, they should have said at the beginning that the thing is done.

If Indy is given the chance to be another pathway, more talent will emerge ready to take on the huge demands of F1 that F3 and F2 can’t adequately fulfill.

Indy can not be the provider anymore because of testing and tires. When Montoya came into F1 he could spend weeks of testing on the Michelin? tires and in the F1 car.
You can see in F2 that a new driver needs one season just to get familiar with the Pirelli tire. No driver is competitive from the start.
If a Indy driver would take a serious approach to F1, he would need to go to F2 to get his licence points...not because he is a bad driver, but because without driving enough on the Pirellis he is just a roadblock in F1.

[PikeStance]

Is it? I am not an expert on the Palou situation, but I would still see two points:
- If there was a second deal for Indy I still do not know what was the idea behind. I mean...at some point McLaren would have needed to buy him out of the contract....I still did not hear a conclusive story why there were two Indy contracts, it can not be that stupid...or can it?
- The F1 deal was done and dusted with McLaren announcing Schumacher as reserve. I do not understand the discussion this year, they should have said at the beginning that the thing is done.

It is my understanding that the contract with Ganassi had an optional year. Alex signed a contract with Mclaren, but then Ganassi exercised his option. A compromise was made where Alex will drive in IndyCar for Ganassi and serve as a reserve driver for McLaren. I am guessing, that Alex and Ganassi must have had some verbal agreement that he would not exercise the optional year, but then Ganassi had second thoughts. I will assume in arbitration the contract with McLaren was voided and the stated compromise enforced. Again guessing, that Alex must have or he felt he had a choice to sign a deal with McLaren or not. He is obviously choosing the latter. Either Alex is playing games or he was caught up in rival intrigue.

[mwillems]

But driving for Red Bull is totally different. Sink or swim and everything is at stake in his career.

I am surprised by this take. I totally agree with the "issue" Lando is facing with pressure. But this pressure comes from the same point:
If Oscar beats him by 0.3sec in the remaining season...there is no RedBull, Ferrari or Merc seat for him. There is a McLaren seat with a ? written on it in case this happens.
I am surprised by the differences that are made between the teams.

Re Palou, he's fast but for a guy to have 2 major contract issues in 2 years makes me question his ethics. And this is not a Piastri like situation either, where it was clearly his employer's fault...

Is it? I am not an expert on the Palou situation, but I would still see two points:
- If there was a second deal for Indy I still do not know what was the idea behind. I mean...at some point McLaren would have needed to buy him out of the contract....I still did not hear a conclusive story why there were two Indy contracts, it can not be that stupid...or can it?
- The F1 deal was done and dusted with McLaren announcing Schumacher as reserve. I do not understand the discussion this year, they should have said at the beginning that the thing is done.

If Indy is given the chance to be another pathway, more talent will emerge ready to take on the huge demands of F1 that F3 and F2 can’t adequately fulfill.

Indy can not be the provider anymore because of testing and tires. When Montoya came into F1 he could spend weeks of testing on the Michelin? tires and in the F1 car.
You can see in F2 that a new driver needs one season just to get familiar with the Pirelli tire. No driver is competitive from the start.
If a Indy driver would take a serious approach to F1, he would need to go to F2 to get his licence points...not because he is a bad driver, but because without driving enough on the Pirellis he is just a roadblock in F1.

Because Oscar is a rising talent but Max is a driver who is ready to crush whoever is next to him. If you're not up to it then youve been measured and fallen short.

But I dont think Oscar will begin to beat Lando consistently until sometime next year and it isnt guarenteed he will. A strong early trajectory is not a guarantee of peak ability, just a strong indication. So if it were me I'd stay at Mclaren or move to Ferrari, or replace Ham.

[FittingMechanics]

Is it? I am not an expert on the Palou situation, but I would still see two points:
- If there was a second deal for Indy I still do not know what was the idea behind. I mean...at some point McLaren would have needed to buy him out of the contract....I still did not hear a conclusive story why there were two Indy contracts, it can not be that stupid...or can it?
- The F1 deal was done and dusted with McLaren announcing Schumacher as reserve. I do not understand the discussion this year, they should have said at the beginning that the thing is done.

It is my understanding that the contract with Ganassi had an optional year. Alex signed a contract with Mclaren, but then Ganassi exercised his option. A compromise was made where Alex will drive in IndyCar for Ganassi and serve as a reserve driver for McLaren. I am guessing, that Alex and Ganassi must have had some verbal agreement that he would not exercise the optional year, but then Ganassi had second thoughts. I will assume in arbitration the contract with McLaren was voided and the stated compromise enforced. Again guessing, that Alex must have or he felt he had a choice to sign a deal with McLaren or not. He is obviously choosing the latter. Either Alex is playing games or he was caught up in rival intrigue.

I think part of it may be that Ganassi had option rights for Indycar, but not for F1.

Now Palou seems to be breaking the contract with McLaren because he sees that his path to F1 probably closed with Piastri doing well.

I hope that the team improves even further next year and that Palou regrets his decision.

[MCLvamos]

I feel like a lot of this Lando skepticism is fuelled by the impeccably high standards that he's shown over the last few season. Oscar has merely come close to him and, granted, beaten him in a session here and there but the comparisons to Leclerc and Hamilton are, in my opinion, wide of the mark. Both of those rookies were much closer to their teammates than Piastri is. And, yes, rookies get a lot less testing nowadays to fine-tine their skills before F1 but out of the three this year, Oscar has had significant private and public testing with Alpine over the last couple years on top of his McLaren work. With that being said, I am firmly on the Oscar hype train and he is undoubtedly a talent with POTENTIAL to challenge Norris, but I wouldn't write off Lando like some people on social media are. Imo he's going to prove a lot of people wrong next year.

[the EDGE]

I feel like a lot of this Lando skepticism is fuelled by the impeccably high standards that he's shown over the last few season. Oscar has merely come close to him and, granted, beaten him in a session here and there but the comparisons to Leclerc and Hamilton are, in my opinion, wide of the mark. Both of those rookies were much closer to their teammates than Piastri is. And, yes, rookies get a lot less testing nowadays to fine-tine their skills before F1 but out of the three this year, Oscar has had significant private and public testing with Alpine over the last couple years on top of his McLaren work. With that being said, I am firmly on the Oscar hype train and he is undoubtedly a talent with POTENTIAL to challenge Norris, but I wouldn't write off Lando like some people on social media are. Imo he's going to prove a lot of people wrong next year.

Couldn't agree more!

Lando fared just as well against Carlos, ass Oscar is against Lando, but Oscar looks like he's doing a better job as he's fighting at the sharp end of the grid. And that's not trying to take anything away from Oscar, he's performing very well for a rookie, definitely better than most do

[FittingMechanics]

I feel like a lot of this Lando skepticism is fuelled by the impeccably high standards that he's shown over the last few season. Oscar has merely come close to him and, granted, beaten him in a session here and there but the comparisons to Leclerc and Hamilton are, in my opinion, wide of the mark. Both of those rookies were much closer to their teammates than Piastri is. And, yes, rookies get a lot less testing nowadays to fine-tine their skills before F1 but out of the three this year, Oscar has had significant private and public testing with Alpine over the last couple years on top of his McLaren work. With that being said, I am firmly on the Oscar hype train and he is undoubtedly a talent with POTENTIAL to challenge Norris, but I wouldn't write off Lando like some people on social media are. Imo he's going to prove a lot of people wrong next year.

Piastri is impressive because he comes after Ricciardo who was dominated for over two years. To get a rookie close to Lando in half a season is a great result for Piastri.

Leclerc joined a team with Ericsson - not someone that lit the world on fire. It is quite possible he is slightly overrated due to circumstances - joined Ferrari with aging/non motivated Vettel.

Hamilton got massive amount of testing - this is not even comparable to amounts that Piastri could get. Hamilton was incredible in his first year and in his career has shown what a generational talent he is.

[CjC]

Rather insightful:

https://www.racefans.net/2023/09/07/mcl ... -2024-car/

Stella has changed his tune about bringing any 2024 ideas to the 2023 car.
He was against it a few races ago now he’s open to the idea if it’s feasible.

Also he says anymore upgrades coming are only worth a tenth or 2 so we won’t see a massive leap again