2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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organic
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 03:12
Based on??
Based on a few things:

mercedes is one of the only teams that has their beamwing elements not made of one continuous piece of carbon that is bonded directly to the RW endplate.

Merc used to have beamwing connections made of different materials / a top layer. Tombazis stated clearly that teams are hiding sliding elements underneath covers made of a different material.

It's also explicitly mentioned that the way the beamwing connects to the crash structure could be exploited allowing potentially the entire RW assembly to pivot and lean relative to the car, allowing drag to be shed on the straight

And around the same time as AMR were making their front wing modifications after FIA looked into them, the way the Merc beamwing looked changed.

Low df:

Baku

Image

Belgium

Image

And high df:

Spain

Image

Netherlands

Image

Now the way the beamwing connects to the crash structure is in line with what the rest of the grid does.

I'm not saying it's definitely the case and yes the connection discontinuities here seem to involve metal, but with the media already pointing towards Mercedes rear end on this and the modifications they've made in the area.. I'm saying it's possible if not likely.

I'd also point out that under similar circumstances last year with TD039 Merc were not shy to talk about the subject and bring it up in the media, press conferences, paddock etc but haven't heard a peep on TD018. Silence can also say something

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scuderiabrandon
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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ringo wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 03:41
organic wrote:
14 Sep 2023, 21:39
My opinion is that they've had to strengthen the beamwing connections to the rear wing endplates
Why would they? Dont think i ever saw them with any suspicious moving or flexing. Haven't seen them with anything fishy apart from whst all teams do..the upper wing element slides down at high speed if i remember.
You won't see anything fishy here because there aren't any cameras pointing towards the beam wing during broadcast. All the images of these are static.

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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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organic wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 03:44
PlatinumZealot wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 03:12
Based on??
Based on a few things:

mercedes is one of the only teams that has their beamwing elements not made of one continuous piece of carbon that is bonded directly to the RW endplate.

Merc used to have beamwing connections made of different materials / a top layer. Tombazis stated clearly that teams are hiding sliding elements underneath covers made of a different material.

It's also explicitly mentioned that the way the beamwing connects to the crash structure could be exploited allowing potentially the entire RW assembly to pivot and lean relative to the car, allowing drag to be shed on the straight

And around the same time as AMR were making their front wing modifications after FIA looked into them, the way the Merc beamwing looked changed.

Low df:

Baku

https://i.imgur.com/r7SiGAn.jpeg

Belgium

https://i.imgur.com/h0H7lzL.jpeg

And high df:

Spain

https://i.imgur.com/Rq57pEz.jpeg

Netherlands

https://i.imgur.com/cIIz45Z.jpeg

Now the way the beamwing connects to the crash structure is in line with what the rest of the grid does.

I'm not saying it's definitely the case and yes the connection discontinuities here seem to involve metal, but with the media already pointing towards Mercedes rear end on this and the modifications they've made in the area.. I'm saying it's possible if not likely.

I'd also point out that under similar circumstances last year with TD039 Merc were not shy to talk about the subject and bring it up in the media, press conferences, paddock etc but haven't heard a peep on TD018. Silence can also say something
Very astute observations and like you, I find the silence regarding TD018 to be more than curious considering this team has traditionally called foul on rivals in a big way in previous seasons.
A lion must kill its prey.

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ValeVida46
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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organic wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 03:44

I'd also point out that under similar circumstances last year with TD039 Merc were not shy to talk about the subject and bring it up in the media, press conferences, paddock etc but haven't heard a peep on TD018. Silence can also say something
So from Holland it wasn't, or at the very least Monza according to your eyeball analysis?

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organic
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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ValeVida46 wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 08:35
organic wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 03:44

I'd also point out that under similar circumstances last year with TD039 Merc were not shy to talk about the subject and bring it up in the media, press conferences, paddock etc but haven't heard a peep on TD018. Silence can also say something
So from Holland it wasn't, or at the very least Monza according to your eyeball analysis?
The change happened over the summer break for both wing specs yes

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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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organic wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 08:49
ValeVida46 wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 08:35
organic wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 03:44

I'd also point out that under similar circumstances last year with TD039 Merc were not shy to talk about the subject and bring it up in the media, press conferences, paddock etc but haven't heard a peep on TD018. Silence can also say something
So from Holland it wasn't, or at the very least Monza according to your eyeball analysis?
The change happened over the summer break for both wing specs yes
And if as you posit, they were impacted by TD039 due to "saying nothing" because "silence can also say something", why is it not reflected in their results and general form since implementation of TD039?

It's interesting too that you left out the fact Mercedes tested a single beam wing for Zandvoort. You posted this on the 1st of September in the W14 thread.
organic wrote:
01 Sep 2023, 09:37
https://i.imgur.com/9s69aHd.jpeg

Rear shot of the Single element BW

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organic
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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ValeVida46 wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 08:56
organic wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 08:49
ValeVida46 wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 08:35


So from Holland it wasn't, or at the very least Monza according to your eyeball analysis?
The change happened over the summer break for both wing specs yes
And if as you posit, they were impacted by TD039 due to "saying nothing" because "silence can also say something", why is it not reflected in their results and general form since implementation of TD039?

It's interesting too that you left out the fact Mercedes tested a single beam wing for Zandvoort. You posted this on the 1st of September in the W14 thread.
organic wrote:
01 Sep 2023, 09:37
https://i.imgur.com/9s69aHd.jpeg

Rear shot of the Single element BW
I didn't intentionally leave it out. I wasn't going through the w14 thread when looking for pictures.. if I did that for pics it would be an incredibly long process due to how much rambling/clutter goes on there. The single beamwing in the Zandvoort test specification also lacks the discontinuous elements that were present before the summer break on all specs. So this reinforces my position.

The logic behind the whole silence thing is as follows:

With the TD039 situation last year, mercedes thought they were going to make gains on their rivals with its introduction. So they made a big fuss about RB/Ferrari having been exploiting this to pressure FIA into bringing changes early and strongly.

TD018 should offer a similar situation for mercedes: if their rivals have been using the trick and they haven't, the others will be pegged back and they move forward. If the situation is as such, they would, the logic follows, be making some noise about it as soon as they heard - they were emailed about this on 22nd August which was before both Monza and Zandvoort according to AMuS.

But they aren't making any noise about TD018 so either they're taking a deliberately different approach to last year despite the situation being the same, or the situation is markedly different from last year & maybe Merc themselves are doing something

Formu1a.uno and AMuS each reported mercedes was under scrutiny at the rear wing area, so it's not just me suggesting this out of the blue.

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ValeVida46
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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organic wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 09:14
I didn't intentionally leave it out. I wasn't going through the w14 thread when looking for pictures.. if I did that for pics it would be an incredibly long process due to how much rambling/clutter goes on there

And the logic behind the whole silence thing is that with the TD039 situation last year, mercedes thought they were going to make gains on their rivals with its introduction. So they made a big fuss about RB/Ferrari having been exploiting this.

TD018 should offer a similar situation for mercedes: if their rivals have been using the trick and they haven't, the others will be pegged back and they move forward. If the situation is as such, they would, the logic follows, be making some noise about it.

But they aren't making any noise about TD018 so either they're taking a deliberately different approach to last year despite the situation being the same, or the situation is markedly different from last year & maybe Merc themselves are doing something

Formu1a.uno and AMuS each reported mercedes was under scrutiny at the rear wing area, so it's not just me suggesting this out of the blue.
The beam wing bond is not the indicator you think it is, if it was then there would be 7 or 8 other "guilty parties".
As for TD039, the purpose of it was Anti-porpoising. Mercedes shouted loudest because they suffered most.
If we are going to be accurate, it needs to be mentioned that the primary focus of the TD was for safety.
And as we have ample evidence of the W13 bucking bronco, the line that they shouted loudest because they wanted the gainz bro doesn't fit with what we saw. If we are being fair that is.

Because what we have now is a situation where posters are saying theyre guilty of asking for something and then guilty because they haven't asked for something. Do you see my point?

TD018 does not "offer a similar situation" as it is not a similar situation at all. Giving equivalence to 2 differing matters entirely is not technical or correct at all.

As for Formula.uno and AMuS, they also mentioned Red Bull. They too have said nothing. But you knew this right? :wink:

https://formu1a.uno/en/red-bull-and-mer ... irectives/

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... nterboden/

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organic
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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ValeVida46 wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 09:38
organic wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 09:14
I didn't intentionally leave it out. I wasn't going through the w14 thread when looking for pictures.. if I did that for pics it would be an incredibly long process due to how much rambling/clutter goes on there

And the logic behind the whole silence thing is that with the TD039 situation last year, mercedes thought they were going to make gains on their rivals with its introduction. So they made a big fuss about RB/Ferrari having been exploiting this.

TD018 should offer a similar situation for mercedes: if their rivals have been using the trick and they haven't, the others will be pegged back and they move forward. If the situation is as such, they would, the logic follows, be making some noise about it.

But they aren't making any noise about TD018 so either they're taking a deliberately different approach to last year despite the situation being the same, or the situation is markedly different from last year & maybe Merc themselves are doing something

Formu1a.uno and AMuS each reported mercedes was under scrutiny at the rear wing area, so it's not just me suggesting this out of the blue.
The beam wing bond is not the indicator you think it is, if it was then there would be 7 or 8 other "guilty parties".
As for TD039, the purpose of it was Anti-porpoising. Mercedes shouted loudest because they suffered most.
If we are going to be accurate, it needs to be mentioned that the primary focus of the TD was for safety.
And as we have ample evidence of the W13 bucking bronco, the line that they shouted loudest because they wanted the gainz bro doesn't fit with what we saw. If we are being fair that is.

Because what we have now is a situation where posters are saying theyre guilty of asking for something and then guilty because they haven't asked for something. Do you see my point?

TD018 does not "offer a similar situation" as it is not a similar situation at all. Giving equivalence to 2 differing matters entirely is not technical or correct at all.

As for Formula.uno and AMuS, they also mentioned Red Bull. They too have said nothing. But you knew this right? :wink:

https://formu1a.uno/en/red-bull-and-mer ... irectives/

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... nterboden/
Hold your horses...

Horner said at Monza it will not affect red bull, and max said this weekend as far as he knows it will not affect them. Waché has also talked about in the summer break with a french publication about how AMR and Mercedes are the ones playing with flexible elements at the moments.

I can dig the quotes but they're posted in the RB team thread at various points. Max's comments from yesterday.

Are you aware that TD039 was what pushed through the Flexi floor changes? The safety angle is how they managed to push through the TD without Ferrari's veto. They bundled the flexi-floor and plank changes into TD039 with the anti-porpoising stuff.

It's almost exactly the same sort of situation here: flexible bodywork grey area that gets corrected with a technical directive that some cars will be more affected by than others depending on who was exploiting the opportunity more.

TD039 also introduced the AOM (aerodynamic oscillation metric) but they removed that for good after a few races (by Singapore).. so that whole safety angle was a non-issue really. TD039 also changed the diffuser minimum throat height and the minimum floor edge height of course for 2023.

I'm not saying it's definitive proof. It's just my belief.

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ValeVida46
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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organic wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 09:43

Hold your horses...

Horner said at Monza it will not affect red bull, and max said this weekend as far as he knows it will not affect them. Waché has also talked about in the summer break with a french publication about how AMR and Mercedes are the ones playing with flexible elements at the moments.

I can dig the quotes but they're posted in the RB team thread at various points. Max's comments from yesterday.

Are you aware that TD039 was what pushed through the Flexi floor changes. The safety angle is how they managed to push through the TD without Ferrari's veto. It's almost exactly the same sort of situation here: flexible bodywork grey area that gets corrected with a technical directive that some cars will be more affected by than others depending on who was exploiting the opportunity more.

TD039 also introduced the AOM (aerodynamic oscillation metric) but they removed that for good after a few races (by Singapore).. so that whole safety angle was a non-issue really. TD039 also changed the diffuser minimum throat height and the minimum floor edge height of course for 2023.

I'm not saying it's definitive proof. It's just my belief.
Was the question asked to Mercedes by the press?
“It will be interesting,” said Wolff.
At Aston Martin you can already see that they have taken a step back now that their wing moves less, but I don’t know the details. Let’s wait and see. I don’t know who will benefit more than others, but who knows. Maybe Red Bull will suddenly be half a second slower. That would be nice, but I don’t think that will be the case.”
So Mercedes have also said something about it, if we are going to use press answers as "statements".
But they're not the same situation as being compared on this thread.
Silence was the reasoning behind the charge right?
TD039 Mercedes were vocal the TD018 there was no pre-emptive statement. There was no pre-emptive statements by Red Bull either which is my point, not after the fact press answers.

The theme is that Red Bull were suspected of doing it due to their higher top speed.
Formu1a.uno and AMuS used Wache's quotes as reasoning to cite Mercedes as suspect.
Teams like Aston Martin and Mercedes play with the deviation
That could very easily just be deflection on Wache's part.

So there's a half story, fleshed out into something of nothing, and then photos of a beam wing which was modified at Zandvoort because Merc were switching between single and double and required modularity to switch out the parts quickly. Well...they weren't the only ones.

Let's step back a moment then and assess technically, what you have based your belief on:
[*]You have a quote from Wache naming 2 rivals directly.
[*]A photo of a modularity switch on the beam wing, which other teams have done in the last couple of races too and prior.

That falls well below any standard of definition for proof, let alone "definitive proof". Even if we charitably term it speculation we could use this methodology for every single team and watch F1Technical turn into F1fantasy.
Not having a go mate, enjoy your content and appreciate the service you provide aggregating the news.
But here? It's like you're chasing ghosts in a thread that really doesn't need it, especially given past form by certain members with repeat attacks on the team and it's staff.

Edit:
The safety angle (TD039) was not a non issue, it was an issue and not just for Mercedes which literally got the FIA to act and issue a directive. But I digress as that's a glass half full/half empty doom loop which I won't comment on further or invoke the ire of mods.

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KimiRai wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 11:08



KimiRai
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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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ValeVida46 wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 11:24
KimiRai wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 11:08
https://twitter.com/AlbertFabrega/statu ... 6356611345
Duel of the Fates! May the best win

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Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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KimiRai wrote:
15 Sep 2023, 11:29
Duel of the Fates! May the best win

:lol: =D>

My money is on Mika

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We.re close with ferrari in racepace.. the technical directive will expose some teams lol