2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[CMSMJ1]

Settle down !

A discussion can be had, but less of the direct eye poking.
Address the post, not the poster

[Astro85]

Hamilton looked very downbeat and depressed after the race, has something gone off between him and the team?

Lots of people having a go at Mercedes on their official twitter posts asking why nobody from Merc celebrated with Lewis and why the official merc photographer/twitter account admin has no footage of the team celebrating with Lewis.

Was there anything to celebrate?
We had a very bad showing:
- Fastest car in the race
- Probably a close call to even be on pole
- Lost at the start
- One driver (as usual since 10 years) bottling Q.

And still they won 15 points by throwing away 12 points in the last lap.

I think they had many chances to win this race:
- I do not know what causes regularly this 0.4sec deficit of one driver in Q3. Actually this is unacceptable for top drivers and others like Perez get a lot of criticism for it. For Merc this is just normal since years...did not play a role for long, but and now it hurts them badly. With being in front of Norris they would have had much better chances on strategy.
- Again a much too conservative strategy. They planned for a 2 stop...so why start on Mediums? They basically lost at the start by not starting Russel on Softs.
- Ferrari made all the errors they could by not having a 3sec gap between the cars for the SC and first row of stops.
- They did not even try to put pressure on Ferrari. Waiting till lap 20 with the first stop was the 1 stop Medium to Hard by Pirelli. It was even a farce that the commentators just asked which Ferrari will stop first...is this a running joke now with Merc bottling the undercut at Singapore???

Yep, too much woulda, coulda, shoulda from the team this year.

[Spoutnik]

Hamilton looked very downbeat and depressed after the race, has something gone off between him and the team?

Lots of people having a go at Mercedes on their official twitter posts asking why nobody from Merc celebrated with Lewis and why the official merc photographer/twitter account admin has no footage of the team celebrating with Lewis.

Was there anything to celebrate?
We had a very bad showing:
- Fastest car in the race
- Probably a close call to even be on pole
- Lost at the start
- One driver (as usual since 10 years) bottling Q.

And still they won 15 points by throwing away 12 points in the last lap.

I think they had many chances to win this race:
- I do not know what causes regularly this 0.4sec deficit of one driver in Q3. Actually this is unacceptable for top drivers and others like Perez get a lot of criticism for it. For Merc this is just normal since years...did not play a role for long, but and now it hurts them badly. With being in front of Norris they would have had much better chances on strategy.
- Again a much too conservative strategy. They planned for a 2 stop...so why start on Mediums? They basically lost at the start by not starting Russel on Softs.
- Ferrari made all the errors they could by not having a 3sec gap between the cars for the SC and first row of stops.
- They did not even try to put pressure on Ferrari. Waiting till lap 20 with the first stop was the 1 stop Medium to Hard by Pirelli. It was even a farce that the commentators just asked which Ferrari will stop first...is this a running joke now with Merc bottling the undercut at Singapore???

Yes... Lewis overtook Alonso in the WDC, 5th podium of the season and salvage enough vital points for the team to stay ahead of Ferrari in the WCC.

Tyre temp cause this inconsistency in qualy imo. These Merc always had a very thin performance window. That's why we aways had some sudden gain of pace in Qualy while the car was nowhere in FP3 : to give two example i) Nurburgring 2013 : where I can remember one of the Merc engineer at the time told to the French TV that they changed nothing overnight, but due to a few degree more on track temp they found 0.4 seconds and manage to be ahead of the RB ii) Mexico 2021 which still a mystery for me, and so on...

Regarding the strategy I just think it would've been better to let Russell 2nd with the Hards and Lewis trying the extrastop. The issue is that Russell since Saturday is doing his PR talk about the set of medium tyre Merc saved, and he was bratting about it even before the start/in the radio during the race...

[Astro85]

Lots of people having a go at Mercedes on their official twitter posts asking why nobody from Merc celebrated with Lewis and why the official merc photographer/twitter account admin has no footage of the team celebrating with Lewis.

Was there anything to celebrate?
We had a very bad showing:
- Fastest car in the race
- Probably a close call to even be on pole
- Lost at the start
- One driver (as usual since 10 years) bottling Q.

And still they won 15 points by throwing away 12 points in the last lap.

I think they had many chances to win this race:
- I do not know what causes regularly this 0.4sec deficit of one driver in Q3. Actually this is unacceptable for top drivers and others like Perez get a lot of criticism for it. For Merc this is just normal since years...did not play a role for long, but and now it hurts them badly. With being in front of Norris they would have had much better chances on strategy.
- Again a much too conservative strategy. They planned for a 2 stop...so why start on Mediums? They basically lost at the start by not starting Russel on Softs.
- Ferrari made all the errors they could by not having a 3sec gap between the cars for the SC and first row of stops.
- They did not even try to put pressure on Ferrari. Waiting till lap 20 with the first stop was the 1 stop Medium to Hard by Pirelli. It was even a farce that the commentators just asked which Ferrari will stop first...is this a running joke now with Merc bottling the undercut at Singapore???

Yes... Lewis overtook Alonso in the WDC, 5th podium of the season and salvage enough vital points for the team to stay ahead of Ferrari in the WCC.

Tyre temp cause this inconsistency in qualy imo. These Merc always had a very thin performance window. That's why we aways had some sudden gain of pace in Qualy while the car was nowhere in FP3 : to give two example i) Nurburgring 2013 : where I can remember one of the Merc engineer at the time told to the French TV that they changed nothing overnight, but due to a few degree more on track temp they found 0.4 seconds and manage to be ahead of the RB ii) Mexico 2021 which still a mystery for me, and so on...

Regarding the strategy I just think it would've been better to let Russell 2nd with the Hards and Lewis trying the extrastop. The issue is that Russell since Saturday is doing his PR talk about the set of medium tyre Merc saved, and he was bratting about it even before the start/in the radio during the race...

Russell is very proactive and assertive, he influences the team on making decisions, very cerebral of him because it's in his best interests to do so. Hamilton said it himself, he wouldn't have pitted if he was in Russell's position which I find strange given the fact that Russell didn't have the pace to pass Sainz on equal tyres.

[Spoutnik]

Was there anything to celebrate?
We had a very bad showing:
- Fastest car in the race
- Probably a close call to even be on pole
- Lost at the start
- One driver (as usual since 10 years) bottling Q.

And still they won 15 points by throwing away 12 points in the last lap.

I think they had many chances to win this race:
- I do not know what causes regularly this 0.4sec deficit of one driver in Q3. Actually this is unacceptable for top drivers and others like Perez get a lot of criticism for it. For Merc this is just normal since years...did not play a role for long, but and now it hurts them badly. With being in front of Norris they would have had much better chances on strategy.
- Again a much too conservative strategy. They planned for a 2 stop...so why start on Mediums? They basically lost at the start by not starting Russel on Softs.
- Ferrari made all the errors they could by not having a 3sec gap between the cars for the SC and first row of stops.
- They did not even try to put pressure on Ferrari. Waiting till lap 20 with the first stop was the 1 stop Medium to Hard by Pirelli. It was even a farce that the commentators just asked which Ferrari will stop first...is this a running joke now with Merc bottling the undercut at Singapore???

Yes... Lewis overtook Alonso in the WDC, 5th podium of the season and salvage enough vital points for the team to stay ahead of Ferrari in the WCC.

Tyre temp cause this inconsistency in qualy imo. These Merc always had a very thin performance window. That's why we aways had some sudden gain of pace in Qualy while the car was nowhere in FP3 : to give two example i) Nurburgring 2013 : where I can remember one of the Merc engineer at the time told to the French TV that they changed nothing overnight, but due to a few degree more on track temp they found 0.4 seconds and manage to be ahead of the RB ii) Mexico 2021 which still a mystery for me, and so on...

Regarding the strategy I just think it would've been better to let Russell 2nd with the Hards and Lewis trying the extrastop. The issue is that Russell since Saturday is doing his PR talk about the set of medium tyre Merc saved, and he was bratting about it even before the start/in the radio during the race...

Russell is very proactive and assertive, he influences the team on making decisions, very cerebral of him because it's in his best interests to do so. Hamilton said it himself, he wouldn't have pitted if he was in Russell's position which I find strange given the fact that Russell didn't have the pace to pass Sainz on equal tyres.

Yes but I feel it hurts the team today because the best strategy for him was to keep the Hards imo, despite all the PR he did about the extra stop.
I think it's not impossible to believe he could've overtake Sainz as the Merc preserve the ryre better, or he could've pressured Sainz into a mistake (as he did himself...).
He had a certain 2nd place and gave it for an uncertain win. The risk-reward balance was quite uncertain (and I'm not taking into account the end result which is a DNF because he exploded mentally), while in the case of Hamilton in 4th, with a free stop it was a no brainer to take the extra stop.

[Astro85]

Yes... Lewis overtook Alonso in the WDC, 5th podium of the season and salvage enough vital points for the team to stay ahead of Ferrari in the WCC.

Tyre temp cause this inconsistency in qualy imo. These Merc always had a very thin performance window. That's why we aways had some sudden gain of pace in Qualy while the car was nowhere in FP3 : to give two example i) Nurburgring 2013 : where I can remember one of the Merc engineer at the time told to the French TV that they changed nothing overnight, but due to a few degree more on track temp they found 0.4 seconds and manage to be ahead of the RB ii) Mexico 2021 which still a mystery for me, and so on...

Regarding the strategy I just think it would've been better to let Russell 2nd with the Hards and Lewis trying the extrastop. The issue is that Russell since Saturday is doing his PR talk about the set of medium tyre Merc saved, and he was bratting about it even before the start/in the radio during the race...

Russell is very proactive and assertive, he influences the team on making decisions, very cerebral of him because it's in his best interests to do so. Hamilton said it himself, he wouldn't have pitted if he was in Russell's position which I find strange given the fact that Russell didn't have the pace to pass Sainz on equal tyres.

Yes but I feel it hurts the team today because the best strategy for him was to keep the Hards imo, despite all the PR he did about the extra stop.
I think it's not impossible to believe he could've overtake Sainz as the Merc preserve the ryre better, or he could've pressured Sainz into a mistake (as he did himself...).
He had a certain 2nd place and gave it for an uncertain win. The risk-reward balance was quite uncertain (and I'm not taking into account the end result which is a DNF because he exploded mentally), while in the case of Hamilton in 4th, with a free stop it was a no brainer to take the extra stop.

Yep, very possible, but as you know, he would have kicked up a fuss if they had only boxed Hamilton and to be fair Hamilton would have done the same if roles were reversed. Mercedes are too concerned with giving them equal treatment, I have no sympathy if it hurts them, they make their own bed, they can lie in it, operationally they are light years behind RB.

[Spoutnik]

Russell is very proactive and assertive, he influences the team on making decisions, very cerebral of him because it's in his best interests to do so. Hamilton said it himself, he wouldn't have pitted if he was in Russell's position which I find strange given the fact that Russell didn't have the pace to pass Sainz on equal tyres.

Yes but I feel it hurts the team today because the best strategy for him was to keep the Hards imo, despite all the PR he did about the extra stop.
I think it's not impossible to believe he could've overtake Sainz as the Merc preserve the ryre better, or he could've pressured Sainz into a mistake (as he did himself...).
He had a certain 2nd place and gave it for an uncertain win. The risk-reward balance was quite uncertain (and I'm not taking into account the end result which is a DNF because he exploded mentally), while in the case of Hamilton in 4th, with a free stop it was a no brainer to take the extra stop.

Yep, very possible, but as you know, he would have kicked up a fuss if they had only boxed Hamilton and to be fair Hamilton would have done the same if roles were reversed. Mercedes are too concerned with giving them equal treatment, I have no sympathy if it hurts them, they make their own bed, they can lie in it, operationally they are light years behind RB.

100% agree.
Althought Hamilton reaction in the scenario you described would've been different to Russell PR...
Equal treatment isn't always right, especially on an occasion like this (that's part of the reason why Ferrari won yersteday).

[Astro85]

Yes but I feel it hurts the team today because the best strategy for him was to keep the Hards imo, despite all the PR he did about the extra stop.
I think it's not impossible to believe he could've overtake Sainz as the Merc preserve the ryre better, or he could've pressured Sainz into a mistake (as he did himself...).
He had a certain 2nd place and gave it for an uncertain win. The risk-reward balance was quite uncertain (and I'm not taking into account the end result which is a DNF because he exploded mentally), while in the case of Hamilton in 4th, with a free stop it was a no brainer to take the extra stop.

Yep, very possible, but as you know, he would have kicked up a fuss if they had only boxed Hamilton and to be fair Hamilton would have done the same if roles were reversed. Mercedes are too concerned with giving them equal treatment, I have no sympathy if it hurts them, they make their own bed, they can lie in it, operationally they are light years behind RB.

100% agree.
Althought Hamilton reaction in the scenario you described would've been different to Russell PR...
Equal treatment isn't always right, especially on an occasion like this (that's part of the reason why Ferrari won yersteday).

I don't blame Russell for that attitude, i very much like it. I don't think he would have had the pace to pass Sainz so for me go for it, why not, zero to hero ended up being hero to zero though.

[Spoutnik]

Yep, very possible, but as you know, he would have kicked up a fuss if they had only boxed Hamilton and to be fair Hamilton would have done the same if roles were reversed. Mercedes are too concerned with giving them equal treatment, I have no sympathy if it hurts them, they make their own bed, they can lie in it, operationally they are light years behind RB.

100% agree.
Althought Hamilton reaction in the scenario you described would've been different to Russell PR...
Equal treatment isn't always right, especially on an occasion like this (that's part of the reason why Ferrari won yersteday).

I don't blame Russell for that attitude, i very much like it. I don't think he would have had the pace to pass Sainz so for me go for it, why not, zero to hero ended up being hero to zero though.

I don't like it but I guess it's his age, plus you need to have this kind of personality to become a WDC, and when your teamate is Hamilton.
Nevertheless, form me as soon a the extra stop happened I was pretty sure it would turn into a DRS train created by Carlos on purpose, I even thought that he would bring Charles in it to make it more powerful.

[Puffpirat]

Like the equal treatment in Zandvoort last year… George needs to shut up and drive or more important Merc needs to stop listening to him.

Best shot at winning the race or at least maximize the points haul would’ve been to only pit Lewis, would have saved him 3s in the pit lane that he needed to wait for the double stack. Sainz couldn’t have played his game either… but hindsight and so.

Don’t think giving the place back to lando mattered in the end. Lewis would’ve lost the place just like Charles did under SC

[Astro85]

100% agree.
Althought Hamilton reaction in the scenario you described would've been different to Russell PR...
Equal treatment isn't always right, especially on an occasion like this (that's part of the reason why Ferrari won yersteday).

I don't blame Russell for that attitude, i very much like it. I don't think he would have had the pace to pass Sainz so for me go for it, why not, zero to hero ended up being hero to zero though.

I don't like it but I guess it's his age, plus you need to have this kind of personality to become a WDC, and when your teamate is Hamilton.
Nevertheless, form me as soon a the extra stop happened I was pretty sure it would turn into a DRS train created by Carlos on purpose, I even thought that he would bring Charles in it to make it more powerful.

He who dares, it's not as though Russell is in the title fight, he was going all in for the win, I think he knows he didn't have the pace to pass Sainz in equal conditions. Strategy wise though, he is definitely asserting himself as the team leader in that department even if it doesn't always work out. The team have always been super conservative, I like Russell, he's like a breath of fresh air.

[Spoutnik]

Like the equal treatment in Zandvoort last year… George needs to shut up and drive or more important Merc needs to stop listening to him.

Best shot at winning the race or at least maximize the points haul would’ve been to only pit Lewis, would have saved him 3s in the pit lane that he needed to wait for the double stack. Sainz couldn’t have played his game either… but hindsight and so.

Don’t think giving the place back to lando mattered in the end. Lewis would’ve lost the place just like Charles did under SC

Yes, it's equal when it's better for George sometimes let's say... Hamilton is a pretty calm guy these days but I think he has to stand up. Especially if you consider Russell performance so far this season... It's not 2022 anymore.

I still believe Russell could've pressured a lot more Sainz, led him to a mistake/destroying his tyres, but it was not the case as Russell had in mind the extra stop since Saturday, that's also what his radios with his engineer highlights.
In case of the DRS train tactics, Sainz could've been more troubled by the Merc of Russell who was faster this weekend, and preserve his tyres better than the McLaren of Norris.

Lewis on the other hand with his usual line changing tactics (notice how closer he was to Russell than Russel was to Norris, notice too how close he finished the last lap to Norris) when he's behind another car would've probably - at least - finished ahead of Norris, if not challenged for the win.

[basti313]

Yes but I feel it hurts the team today because the best strategy for him was to keep the Hards imo, despite all the PR he did about the extra stop.

For him or for the team? I mean...at the time we are talking about the VSC stop, the strategy was already blown by the team.
I think there were two scenarios:
- One of the Mercs pits, the other one joins the DRS train until the end...nothing to win, most likely the scenario we would have seen. So yes, for Russel the better choice maybe. But do you want to race or do you want to play "who can go slowest" with Ferrari?
- Hamilton pits and Russel sacrifices his race completely and brings down the pace even further than Sainz did...I guess not even Perez would do this, right? But that would have been in hindsight the only way to win at this point.

I think it's not impossible to believe he could've overtake Sainz as the Merc preserve the ryre better, or he could've pressured Sainz into a mistake (as he did himself...).

No way.
Or the other way round: The first and major strategy error was in the first stint. The gap to Leclerc was too big, they did not even try to put pressure on him.
That is where they lost the race: They would have needed to finish the tires in lap 15, put all the pressure on Lec once he was well out of DRS range and to the undercut. In any case this would have been a Vettel in 2019 move with Rus being in front.

He had a certain 2nd place and gave it for an uncertain win. The risk-reward balance was quite uncertain (and I'm not taking into account the end result which is a DNF because he exploded mentally), while in the case of Hamilton in 4th, with a free stop it was a no brainer to take the extra stop.

Well, you need to race to win a race. I think it was not thinkable before, not even for Ferrari that Sainz slows down to give Lando a pull. Was it two laps to the end when Lando had a bad exit and was suddenly 1.6sec behind....and Sainz made a huge lift into T1 to get him back into DRS?

[Spoutnik]

I don't blame Russell for that attitude, i very much like it. I don't think he would have had the pace to pass Sainz so for me go for it, why not, zero to hero ended up being hero to zero though.

I don't like it but I guess it's his age, plus you need to have this kind of personality to become a WDC, and when your teamate is Hamilton.
Nevertheless, form me as soon a the extra stop happened I was pretty sure it would turn into a DRS train created by Carlos on purpose, I even thought that he would bring Charles in it to make it more powerful.

He who dares, it's not as though Russell is in the title fight, he was going all in for the win, I think he knows he didn't have the pace to pass Sainz in equal conditions. Strategy wise though, he is definitely asserting himself as the team leader in that department even if it doesn't always work out. The team have always been super conservative, I like Russell, he's like a breath of fresh air.

That's an individualist/short termist analysis. In mean in the end Ferrari gets closer in the WCC, he's losing 15 points to his teamates in the WDC...
The real risk would've been to put more pressure on Sainz, trying to destroy his tyre, force him to a mistake (Verstappen did it twice against him).
He's a breath of fresh air just because he's obsessed with beating Hamilton which led him to take more risk/propose alternative strategy, I get it but he has to stop overdrive. I've never seen a driver so emotional (look at his post-race itw), he's pressuring himself too much : recently it costs to the team (points mainly), it didn't quite help Hamilton neither

[Astro85]

I don't like it but I guess it's his age, plus you need to have this kind of personality to become a WDC, and when your teamate is Hamilton.
Nevertheless, form me as soon a the extra stop happened I was pretty sure it would turn into a DRS train created by Carlos on purpose, I even thought that he would bring Charles in it to make it more powerful.

He who dares, it's not as though Russell is in the title fight, he was going all in for the win, I think he knows he didn't have the pace to pass Sainz in equal conditions. Strategy wise though, he is definitely asserting himself as the team leader in that department even if it doesn't always work out. The team have always been super conservative, I like Russell, he's like a breath of fresh air.

That's an individualist/short termist analysis. In mean in the end Ferrari gets closer in the WCC, he's losing 15 points to his teamates in the WDC...
The real risk would've been to put more pressure on Sainz, trying to destroy his tyre, force him to a mistake (Verstappen did it twice against him).
He's a breath of fresh air just because he's obsessed with beating Hamilton which led him to take more risk/propose alternative strategy, I get it but he has to stop overdrive. I've never seen a driver so emotional (look at his post-race itw), he's pressuring himself too much : recently it costs to the team (points mainly), it didn't quite help Hamilton neither

I just think Russell is an emotional guy, he showed similar emotions at Williams. And of course he feels pressure, he has high expectations and big boots to fill once Hamilton retires.