2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[ringo]

Like the equal treatment in Zandvoort last year… George needs to shut up and drive or more important Merc needs to stop listening to him.

Best shot at winning the race or at least maximize the points haul would’ve been to only pit Lewis, would have saved him 3s in the pit lane that he needed to wait for the double stack. Sainz couldn’t have played his game either… but hindsight and so.

Don’t think giving the place back to lando mattered in the end. Lewis would’ve lost the place just like Charles did under SC

Yes, it's equal when it's better for George sometimes let's say... Hamilton is a pretty calm guy these days but I think he has to stand up. Especially if you consider Russell performance so far this season... It's not 2022 anymore.

I still believe Russell could've pressured a lot more Sainz, led him to a mistake/destroying his tyres, but it was not the case as Russell had in mind the extra stop since Saturday, that's also what his radios with his engineer highlights.
In case of the DRS train tactics, Sainz could've been more troubled by the Merc of Russell who was faster this weekend, and preserve his tyres better than the McLaren of Norris.

Lewis on the other hand with his usual line changing tactics (notice how closer he was to Russell than Russel was to Norris, notice too how close he finished the last lap to Norris) when he's behind another car would've probably - at least - finished ahead of Norris, if not challenged for the win.

Hamilton would have overtaken both Norris, Russel on hards and Sainz, if Merc kept Russel out.
That's how much pace Hamilton had in the car and front end. He did not need DRS to get by, he would have done something similar to what Ocon did to Alonso. Pass them on traction.
But yes he is too calm these days and relaxed. He sat back behind russel, but there were a few times he could have even passed Russel on the same tyres.

[dans79]

But yes he is too calm these days and relaxed. He sat back behind russel, but there were a few times he could have even passed Russel on the same tyres.

Imo, if asked in confidence he would say it wouldn't be worth the blow up it would cause inside the team. If he had a championship on the line, that would be one thing, but not a distant 2nd or 3rd.

[Astro85]

Like the equal treatment in Zandvoort last year… George needs to shut up and drive or more important Merc needs to stop listening to him.

Best shot at winning the race or at least maximize the points haul would’ve been to only pit Lewis, would have saved him 3s in the pit lane that he needed to wait for the double stack. Sainz couldn’t have played his game either… but hindsight and so.

Don’t think giving the place back to lando mattered in the end. Lewis would’ve lost the place just like Charles did under SC

Yes, it's equal when it's better for George sometimes let's say... Hamilton is a pretty calm guy these days but I think he has to stand up. Especially if you consider Russell performance so far this season... It's not 2022 anymore.

I still believe Russell could've pressured a lot more Sainz, led him to a mistake/destroying his tyres, but it was not the case as Russell had in mind the extra stop since Saturday, that's also what his radios with his engineer highlights.
In case of the DRS train tactics, Sainz could've been more troubled by the Merc of Russell who was faster this weekend, and preserve his tyres better than the McLaren of Norris.

Lewis on the other hand with his usual line changing tactics (notice how closer he was to Russell than Russel was to Norris, notice too how close he finished the last lap to Norris) when he's behind another car would've probably - at least - finished ahead of Norris, if not challenged for the win.

Hamilton would have overtaken both Norris, Russel on hards and Sainz, if Merc kept Russel out.
That's how much pace Hamilton had in the car and front end. He did not need DRS to get by, he would have done something similar to what Ocon did to Alonso. Pass them on traction.
But yes he is too calm these days and relaxed. He sat back behind russel, but there were a few times he could have even passed Russel on the same tyres.

He never realistically got close enough to make a move on Russell, if he did he would have gone for it.

[dans79]

He never realistically got close enough to make a move on Russell, if he did he would have gone for it.

I've sat on his onboard for the final stint several times since yesterday. he had chances, he just didn't take them! His relationship with George and the team is good right now, it would not be if he just sent one!

he even mentioned on the radio that George needed to pick up the pace if he could (lap 60 I believe)!

[Astro85]

He never realistically got close enough to make a move on Russell, if he did he would have gone for it.

I've sat on his onboard for the final stint several times since yesterday. he had chances, he just didn't take them! His relationship with George and the team is good right now, it would not be if he just sent one!

he even mentioned on the radio that George needed to pick up the pace if he could (lap 60 I believe)!

He would have had to have made the mother of all sends to make a pass. He showed his nose once or twice but it just wasn't on. Those sort of moves just don't happen with the Hamilton of today.

[RZS10]

[...] Hamilton’s move was so extreme that I would want to see telemetry of his speed there vs next lap because I think Stewards basically saw that he passed Norris because he had no intention of making the corner.

I’m not saying he wasn’t going to make it but his speed was high and he just went straight very quickly after George allegedly pushed him.

If you check the far offboard replay which was posted here as a gif you can see that Hamilton seemingly had no overspeed relative to Russell from a certain point onwards, he was very likely capable of making the corner whilst already having completed the overtake on Norris.

Arguably the precedent for this move being perfectly fine was Lewis' own team mate in Spain (highlight vid as a refresher if needed)

That was Russell's position relative to Piastri, the only explanation of why Russell did not have to give the position back is that it was deemed he had completed the overtake:


He bailed before he was actually ran out of road, a bit before the halfway point between apexes:


He then went around the bollard and kept the position ahead of Piastri.

And now for comparison:

I'm relatively certain Norris has no part of his car alongside of Lewis from this point onward, if Russell was deemed to have completed the overtake on Piastri in Spain, then this is certainly the case here.

From the gif mentioned above: a few frames in which Hamilton's position to Russell doesn't change significantly, the logical conclusion is that he has shed any extra speed and is not going significantly faster than Russell, if at all.

The consequence of that is that he would have been fully capable of making the corner if given the space.

He then bails before he is actually ran out of road, a bit before the halfway point between apexes:


He absolutely had to give the position back to Russell, of course - Norris? Not so sure, but definitely not if the FIA/stewards/race control were consistent.

[Astro85]

[...] Hamilton’s move was so extreme that I would want to see telemetry of his speed there vs next lap because I think Stewards basically saw that he passed Norris because he had no intention of making the corner.

I’m not saying he wasn’t going to make it but his speed was high and he just went straight very quickly after George allegedly pushed him.

If you check the far offboard replay which was posted here as a gif you can see that Hamilton seemingly had no overspeed relative to Russell from a certain point onwards, he was very likely capable of making the corner whilst already having completed the overtake on Norris.

Arguably the precedent for this move being perfectly fine was Lewis' own team mate in Spain (highlight vid as a refresher if needed)

That was Russell's position relative to Piastri, the only explanation of why Russell did not have to give the position back is that it was deemed he had completed the overtake:
https://i.imgur.com/g0WolyE.png

He bailed before he was actually ran out of road, a bit before the halfway point between apexes:
https://i.imgur.com/9UdTAGF.png

He then went around the bollard and kept the position ahead of Piastri.

And now for comparison:
https://i.imgur.com/3W1YyZq.png
I'm relatively certain Norris has no part of his car alongside of Lewis from this point onward, if Russell was deemed to have completed the overtake on Piastri in Spain, then this is certainly the case here.

From the gif mentioned above: a few frames in which Hamilton's position to Russell doesn't change significantly, the logical conclusion is that he has shed any extra speed and is not going significantly faster than Russell, if at all.
https://i.imgur.com/snFpBij.gif
The consequence of that is that he would have been fully capable of making the corner if given the space.

He then bails before he is actually ran out of road, a bit before the halfway point between apexes:
https://i.imgur.com/zMUfqXR.png

He absolutely had to give the position back to Russell, of course - Norris? Not so sure, but definitely not if the FIA/stewards/race control were consistent.

This is true but again hindsight is a wonderful thing, the FIA/stewards don't have clips of prior races at hand to compare in an instant. What I detest is how the FIA won't cooperate with teams and inform them wether a driver needs to concede the position instead. No, they would rather keep quiet, let the teams interpret it and then give the driver a penalty, it's so pretty and pathetic it's comical.

[randolf]

If you check the far offboard replay which was posted here as a gif you can see that Hamilton seemingly had no overspeed relative to Russell from a certain point onwards, he was very likely capable of making the corner whilst already having completed the overtake on Norris.

Arguably the precedent for this move being perfectly fine was Lewis' own team mate in Spain (highlight vid as a refresher if needed)

That was Russell's position relative to Piastri, the only explanation of why Russell did not have to give the position back is that it was deemed he had completed the overtake:
https://i.imgur.com/g0WolyE.png

He bailed before he was actually ran out of road, a bit before the halfway point between apexes:
https://i.imgur.com/9UdTAGF.png

He then went around the bollard and kept the position ahead of Piastri.

And now for comparison:
https://i.imgur.com/3W1YyZq.png
I'm relatively certain Norris has no part of his car alongside of Lewis from this point onward, if Russell was deemed to have completed the overtake on Piastri in Spain, then this is certainly the case here.

From the gif mentioned above: a few frames in which Hamilton's position to Russell doesn't change significantly, the logical conclusion is that he has shed any extra speed and is not going significantly faster than Russell, if at all.
https://i.imgur.com/snFpBij.gif
The consequence of that is that he would have been fully capable of making the corner if given the space.

He then bails before he is actually ran out of road, a bit before the halfway point between apexes:
https://i.imgur.com/zMUfqXR.png

He absolutely had to give the position back to Russell, of course - Norris? Not so sure, but definitely not if the FIA/stewards/race control were consistent.

This is true but again hindsight is a wonderful thing, the FIA/stewards don't have clips of prior races at hand to compare in an instant. What I detest is how the FIA won't cooperate with teams and inform them wether a driver needs to concede the position or not. No, they would rather keep quiet, let the teams interpret it and then give the driver a penalty, it's so petty and pathetic it's comical.

Lewis carried great deal of speed to turn 1, almost 30kph more than George at the point of braking and for a moment put brakes and then went straight. There was a clear intention of not making turn 1.

[Hammerfist]

[...] Hamilton’s move was so extreme that I would want to see telemetry of his speed there vs next lap because I think Stewards basically saw that he passed Norris because he had no intention of making the corner.

I’m not saying he wasn’t going to make it but his speed was high and he just went straight very quickly after George allegedly pushed him.

If you check the far offboard replay which was posted here as a gif you can see that Hamilton seemingly had no overspeed relative to Russell from a certain point onwards, he was very likely capable of making the corner whilst already having completed the overtake on Norris.

Arguably the precedent for this move being perfectly fine was Lewis' own team mate in Spain (highlight vid as a refresher if needed)

That was Russell's position relative to Piastri, the only explanation of why Russell did not have to give the position back is that it was deemed he had completed the overtake:
https://i.imgur.com/g0WolyE.png

He bailed before he was actually ran out of road, a bit before the halfway point between apexes:
https://i.imgur.com/9UdTAGF.png

He then went around the bollard and kept the position ahead of Piastri.

And now for comparison:
https://i.imgur.com/3W1YyZq.png
I'm relatively certain Norris has no part of his car alongside of Lewis from this point onward, if Russell was deemed to have completed the overtake on Piastri in Spain, then this is certainly the case here.

From the gif mentioned above: a few frames in which Hamilton's position to Russell doesn't change significantly, the logical conclusion is that he has shed any extra speed and is not going significantly faster than Russell, if at all.
https://i.imgur.com/snFpBij.gif
The consequence of that is that he would have been fully capable of making the corner if given the space.

He then bails before he is actually ran out of road, a bit before the halfway point between apexes:
https://i.imgur.com/zMUfqXR.png

He absolutely had to give the position back to Russell, of course - Norris? Not so sure, but definitely not if the FIA/stewards/race control were consistent.

Great presentation.

It's clear to me he had Norris beat. But Russell does not have to cede space there so going for the escape road was the right thing for Hamilton to do and giving the place back to Russell was also the right thing to do. But Norris didn't deserve to be given the position back. He was beaten fair and square into turn one. Ham and Merc should have gambled on the 5 sec penalty on that one.

[Astro85]

[...] Hamilton’s move was so extreme that I would want to see telemetry of his speed there vs next lap because I think Stewards basically saw that he passed Norris because he had no intention of making the corner.

I’m not saying he wasn’t going to make it but his speed was high and he just went straight very quickly after George allegedly pushed him.

If you check the far offboard replay which was posted here as a gif you can see that Hamilton seemingly had no overspeed relative to Russell from a certain point onwards, he was very likely capable of making the corner whilst already having completed the overtake on Norris.

Arguably the precedent for this move being perfectly fine was Lewis' own team mate in Spain (highlight vid as a refresher if needed)

That was Russell's position relative to Piastri, the only explanation of why Russell did not have to give the position back is that it was deemed he had completed the overtake:
https://i.imgur.com/g0WolyE.png

He bailed before he was actually ran out of road, a bit before the halfway point between apexes:
https://i.imgur.com/9UdTAGF.png

He then went around the bollard and kept the position ahead of Piastri.

And now for comparison:
https://i.imgur.com/3W1YyZq.png
I'm relatively certain Norris has no part of his car alongside of Lewis from this point onward, if Russell was deemed to have completed the overtake on Piastri in Spain, then this is certainly the case here.

From the gif mentioned above: a few frames in which Hamilton's position to Russell doesn't change significantly, the logical conclusion is that he has shed any extra speed and is not going significantly faster than Russell, if at all.
https://i.imgur.com/snFpBij.gif
The consequence of that is that he would have been fully capable of making the corner if given the space.

He then bails before he is actually ran out of road, a bit before the halfway point between apexes:
https://i.imgur.com/zMUfqXR.png

He absolutely had to give the position back to Russell, of course - Norris? Not so sure, but definitely not if the FIA/stewards/race control were consistent.

Great presentation.

It's clear to me he had Norris beat. But Russell does not have to cede space there so going for the escape road was the right thing for Hamilton to do and giving the place back to Russell was also the right thing to do. But Norris didn't deserve to be given the position back. He was beaten fair and square into turn one. Ham and Merc should have gambled on the 5 sec penalty on that one.

They shouldn't need to gamble, the stewards should just say wether he has to give up the position or not.

[chrisc90]

It wasnt even the stewards choice to give the place back. The team did. The outcome of the stewards investigation was no further action.

[Spoutnik]

Yes, it's equal when it's better for George sometimes let's say... Hamilton is a pretty calm guy these days but I think he has to stand up. Especially if you consider Russell performance so far this season... It's not 2022 anymore.

I still believe Russell could've pressured a lot more Sainz, led him to a mistake/destroying his tyres, but it was not the case as Russell had in mind the extra stop since Saturday, that's also what his radios with his engineer highlights.
In case of the DRS train tactics, Sainz could've been more troubled by the Merc of Russell who was faster this weekend, and preserve his tyres better than the McLaren of Norris.

Lewis on the other hand with his usual line changing tactics (notice how closer he was to Russell than Russel was to Norris, notice too how close he finished the last lap to Norris) when he's behind another car would've probably - at least - finished ahead of Norris, if not challenged for the win.

Hamilton would have overtaken both Norris, Russel on hards and Sainz, if Merc kept Russel out.
That's how much pace Hamilton had in the car and front end. He did not need DRS to get by, he would have done something similar to what Ocon did to Alonso. Pass them on traction.
But yes he is too calm these days and relaxed. He sat back behind russel, but there were a few times he could have even passed Russel on the same tyres.

He never realistically got close enough to make a move on Russell, if he did he would have gone for it.

Ringo is right. Russell cooked his rear tyres the last 3 laps he was all over the place. Hamilton was better on traction and was taking tighter line. You could see this at the end of lap 60 when Russell put an attack on Norris, Lewis was all over Russell in the S3 because George had probably overheat his rear tyres and had a little look on the inside at the last corner. After that on lap 51 Lewis as consistently having a look at the inside and taking tighter lines.

What's weird for me is that it's 109 pts to 180 pts. Russell had blunder, when it mattered (we could say it didn't matter in Canada), the team lost 22 points to Ferrari, but there's not real criticism from the team (logical, but some TP would throw him under the bus), the media, and overall general opinion. Russell PR gave him an immunity these days it seems
At the same time Hamilton is thrown under the bus because this weekend Russell was ahead, and overall much closer since the summer break, and don't get me started about the agenda against Lewis last year. Double standard

But overall I just think we disagree since yersteday because we have a different appreciation of each driver

[Astro85]

It wasnt even the stewards choice to give the place back. The team did. The outcome of the stewards investigation was no further action.

But, they didn't know that at the time? It's an easy remedy but the FIA as we all know are comically incompetent.

[Astro85]

Hamilton would have overtaken both Norris, Russel on hards and Sainz, if Merc kept Russel out.
That's how much pace Hamilton had in the car and front end. He did not need DRS to get by, he would have done something similar to what Ocon did to Alonso. Pass them on traction.
But yes he is too calm these days and relaxed. He sat back behind russel, but there were a few times he could have even passed Russel on the same tyres.

He never realistically got close enough to make a move on Russell, if he did he would have gone for it.

Ringo is right. Russell cooked his rear tyres the last 3 laps he was all over the place. Hamilton was better on traction and was taking tighter line. You could see this at the end of lap 60 when Russell put an attack on Norris, Lewis was all over Russell in the S3 because George had probably overheat his rear tyres and had a little look on the inside at the last corner. After that on lap 51 Lewis as consistently having a look at the inside and taking tighter lines.

What's weird for me is that it's 109 pts to 180. Russell had blunder, when it mattered (we could say it didn't matter in Canada), the team lost 22 points to Ferrari, but there's not real criticism from the team (logical, but some TP would throw him under the bus), the media, and overall general opinion. Russell PR gave him an immunity these days it seems

But overall I just think we disagree since yersteday because we have a different appreciation of each driver

Yes, he was all over him for a few corners but he never came close enough to make a pass attempt.

[chrisc90]

It wasnt even the stewards choice to give the place back. The team did. The outcome of the stewards investigation was no further action.

But, they didn't know that at the time? It's an easy remedy but the FIA as we all know are comically incompetent.

FIA were correct to investigate it. If the team opted to give the position back then its nothing to do with the FIA in the slightest.

If the stewards said the place had to be given back, thats completely different.