2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Luscion]

Merc lost lots of talent to other teams in the last 3 years. It will take some poaching to catch up.

They have been poaching people this year, from RedBull and other teams, they just dont talk about it according to Toto(https://racingnews365.com/mercedes-has- ... people/amp) and i believe him because, and correct me if i'm wrong, up until seeing her in Bahrain walking next to Toto in merc gear i dont think anyone reported on Merc poaching RedBull's COO

[chrisc90]

@JAF

I’d say there is a difference to looking at a design and drawing your own conclusions to that of taking day a imagine of a floor, running it through computers to make a ‘blueprint’ then analysing it.
I’m not disagreeing with you about teams, (any) taking a design and drawing their own. Such as the slotted front wing for example.

[Bill_Kar]

I guess this is one of those situations that are just.. difficult, there isn't really another viable option. Copying RB will give some short-term gains, for sure, but what's in the long run? I mean RB has a headstart on this design of 2 years, is it even possible to bridge this gap in 2025?

[Farnborough]

I feel there's a coarse first level split in looking at other's design implementation.

Firstly, something that clearly makes use of a space in rules / regulations that hadn't been seen by your own team, or analysed, dismissed and then seen in more positive light from someone else working in that same area, but with obvious success.

Secondly, working on a completely different track, essentially a completely parallel design concept that flips perceived logic completely to run with not much in common with others. As AN points out, you turn up at the beginning of new regs without knowing if you or they will have performance advantage.
This is the interesting significant part of having individual teams design their own cars, rather than spec series. Sometimes two opposed design hold something of parity, sometimes they couldn't be more different in effectiveness.

[CHT]

I guess this is one of those situations that are just.. difficult, there isn't really another viable option. Copying RB will give some short-term gains, for sure, but what's in the long run? I mean RB has a headstart on this design of 2 years, is it even possible to bridge this gap in 2025?

Merc is likely to spend 2024 learning about the new car set up, balance, tire management, aero upgrade etc, and it will be a long learning process.

So unless Merc can challenge RBR for odd wins by the end of 2024, 2025 will also be a write-off as Merc will need to decide between catching RBR in 2025 or a good start to 2026 technical regulation. Personally, I think most teams will choose 2026 unless both team are neck to neck. Tough decision if you asked me. Just like RBR in 2021. Having to choose between WDC or 2022

[mkay]

I guess this is one of those situations that are just.. difficult, there isn't really another viable option. Copying RB will give some short-term gains, for sure, but what's in the long run? I mean RB has a headstart on this design of 2 years, is it even possible to bridge this gap in 2025?

Merc is likely to spend 2024 learning about the new car set up, balance, tire management, aero upgrade etc, and it will be a long learning process.

So unless Merc can challenge RBR for odd wins by the end of 2024, 2025 will also be a write-off as Merc will need to decide between catching RBR in 2025 or a good start to 2026 technical regulation. Personally, I think most teams will choose 2026 unless both team are neck to neck. Tough decision if you asked me. Just like RBR in 2021. Having to choose between WDC or 2022

Unless you have a good enough engineering staff that you can do both, like Red Bull. Won 2021 and managed to create a platform that will dominate 2022-2025.

[DGP123]

Won 2021 and managed to create a platform that will dominate 2022-2025.

The depressing reality

There just isn’t enough evidence out there to suggest Merc have the brains or ability to turn this around. I don’t see anyone touching RB in this regulation, a view pretty much shared.

Unfortunately, with the championships sewn up, the team mate battles at Merc, Ferrari & McLaren, look like the only interest until the 26’ reset.

[AR3-GP]

Won 2021 and managed to create a platform that will dominate 2022-2025.

The depressing reality

There just isn’t enough evidence out there to suggest Merc have the brains or ability to turn this around. I don’t see anyone touching RB in this regulation, a view pretty much shared.

Unfortunately, with the championships sewn up, the team mate battles at Merc, Ferrari & McLaren, look like the only interest until the 26’ reset.

2024 will be the litmus test.

[Xyz22]

Won 2021 and managed to create a platform that will dominate 2022-2025.

The depressing reality

There just isn’t enough evidence out there to suggest Merc have the brains or ability to turn this around. I don’t see anyone touching RB in this regulation, a view pretty much shared.

Unfortunately, with the championships sewn up, the team mate battles at Merc, Ferrari & McLaren, look like the only interest until the 26’ reset.

The issue is that they have to recover the current gap + whatever RB will find with the RB20 without any major changes to the regulations.

It means they have to be much more efficient in the development. I have never seen a team recovering such a gap to a dominant team without any changes to the regulations.

In 2003 we had the tyre war, in 2012 there were some important changes, in 2017 we had a major change, in 2021 the changes to the geometry of the floor had a massive impact on lap times, etc.

Nothing is planned for 2024 so... It's going to be extremely difficult. I think even recovering half of the current gap would be almost a miracle.

[cplchanb]

The MP4-18 was a good experience for Adrian Newey and he knows very well that when a car has fundamental issues it will be difficult to recover. I think Merc is putting too much emphasis on the engine to win and dominate the sport, and their failure to run zero pod design is a big setback.

Or Mercedes put an idea through their then-current design tools and got an incorrect answer out. On paper, the zero-pods "slammed floor" approach was great. Sadly, real air didn't agree with the simulated air and the concept of the "slammed floor" didn't work.

Newey's gut was more likely just a result of years of experience designing cars that included the old flat bottomed cars - active suspension was used by Williams on the FW14B and FW15C specifically to control the aero platform (no nasty aero-surprises). That will have sat in the back of Newey's mind until it popped up and said "Hi!" with these regs. And he will have used that to guide the design team.

Edit: I'm reminded of the FW14B and the issues that the drivers had with it. Neither was keen (Mansell having suffered active suspension failures before) but Mansell did trust the team when they said "it will stick" (even though the feedback was "wrong") and he won the title. Patrese, however, never could get on with the active suspension and just lost time because of it. Sound familiar?

Not to mention he also had years of exp designing the RB X2010 for Gran Turismo which incorporated elements of ground effects. he already had years of head start vs others.

[KimiRai]

Won 2021 and managed to create a platform that will dominate 2022-2025.

That's the amazing part, how they managed to achieve that. Even more so, Newey recently admitted that as a result of their 2021 championship battle and having to develop it further than other rivals during the year, the RB18 was "conceived probably in a much shorter time than most, if not all, our rivals”.

Just an incredible feat. I can understand some of the criticism of the budget cap breach because at face value it really looks disbelieving. But it's not an excuse though.

[Just_a_fan]

Won 2021 and managed to create a platform that will dominate 2022-2025.

That's the amazing part, how they managed to achieve that. Even more so, Newey recently admitted that as a result of their 2021 championship battle and having to develop it further than other rivals during the year, the RB18 was "conceived probably in a much shorter time than most, if not all, our rivals”.

Just an incredible feat. I can understand some of the criticism of the budget cap breach because at face value it really looks disbelieving. But it's not an excuse though.

Er, yeah, if one ignores the Valkyrie that has interestingly similar floor structures to the RB18/19.

[ringo]

I guess this is one of those situations that are just.. difficult, there isn't really another viable option. Copying RB will give some short-term gains, for sure, but what's in the long run? I mean RB has a headstart on this design of 2 years, is it even possible to bridge this gap in 2025?

Mercedes can beat red bull with a copy. Why?
Well redbull did not go through the struggles that mercedes did and there are things that mercedes learned while struggle and solutions they found and worked st to desperately solve their problems. These aspects of the w14 may not have been investigated by a team like rbr who had smooth sailing. And this is why Newy walks with his clip board and takes notes of the other cars. There are always tricks that can be missed.
Mercedes with a redbull copy and other suspension, floor or wing features born out of their desperation with w13 and w14 could give them an edge against an RB20.
So i feel it is possible to copy and be better. It's not likely but it's possible.

[AR3-GP]

I guess this is one of those situations that are just.. difficult, there isn't really another viable option. Copying RB will give some short-term gains, for sure, but what's in the long run? I mean RB has a headstart on this design of 2 years, is it even possible to bridge this gap in 2025?

Mercedes can beat red bull with a copy. Why?
Well redbull did not go through the struggles that mercedes did and there are things that mercedes learned while struggle and solutions they found and worked st to desperately solve their problems. These aspects of the w14 may not have been investigated by a team like rbr who had smooth sailing. And this is why Newy walks with his clip board and takes notes of the other cars. There are always tricks that can be missed.
Mercedes with a redbull copy and other suspension, floor or wing features born out of their desperation with w13 and w14 could give them an edge against an RB20.
So i feel it is possible to copy and be better. It's not likely but it's possible.

To copy and be better would imply it's not a true copy fwiw...

[CHT]

I guess this is one of those situations that are just.. difficult, there isn't really another viable option. Copying RB will give some short-term gains, for sure, but what's in the long run? I mean RB has a headstart on this design of 2 years, is it even possible to bridge this gap in 2025?

Mercedes can beat red bull with a copy. Why?
Well redbull did not go through the struggles that mercedes did and there are things that mercedes learned while struggle and solutions they found and worked st to desperately solve their problems. These aspects of the w14 may not have been investigated by a team like rbr who had smooth sailing. And this is why Newy walks with his clip board and takes notes of the other cars. There are always tricks that can be missed.
Mercedes with a redbull copy and other suspension, floor or wing features born out of their desperation with w13 and w14 could give them an edge against an RB20.
So i feel it is possible to copy and be better. It's not likely but it's possible.

What Merc has learned is that their design philosophy for the 2022 technical regulation was wrong and it took them nearly 1.5 years to realize they need to change. While at RBR, they started 2022 on the right footing and spent nearly 2 years learning and understanding the car to make it better. With nearly 2 years of track data, I think RBR simulator is already well set up to assist in development, while Merc will need to unlearn and relearn. There is also the limitation of engine development restriction, budget cap, limited track testing etc.

In F1, of course, anything is possible, but if your hypothesis is correct, then we should also include Ferrari and Mclaren to be competing for win. How is Merc's position better than McLaren and Ferrari?