2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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KimiRai
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Honda has a big challenge to resolve to prepare properly for its new Formula 1 engine project with the Aston Martin team in 2026.

Once Honda stops supplying the two Red Bull F1 teams with engines after the 2025 season, it will switch to an exclusive Aston Martin supply for the new engine rules.

Aston Martin tempted Honda to commit to a brand-new engine project for 2026 despite the company only formally withdrawing from F1 at the end of 2021.

The odd circumstances around Honda’s exit - as it committed to a four-year ongoing supply to Red Bull despite officially quitting F1, and subsequently increased the - understandably make some view Honda’s participation as unbroken.

However, there were significant tangible consequences from the original decision to quit.

The main development work continued until the different parts of the power unit were frozen across 2022, and smaller projects remained active looking into different aspects of the potential 2026 power unit regulations even without a guarantee Honda would actually commit to a full programme.

This was all managed across a smaller operation. Many members of the F1 project were reallocated to Honda’s mass production projects in Japan. Honda also sold a bespoke facility in Milton Keynes to Red Bull Powertrains.

This meant Honda’s initial preparations for 2026 were compromised, even though CEO Toshihiro Mibe claimed the development team and engineers still in place were working hard to ensure a “great performance from the very beginning”, and HRC leader Koji Watanabe said “we don’t think we have lost much”.

As reported by The Race, Honda was in need of either a recruitment drive or a significant reallocation of staff back to F1 - and this has effectively been confirmed by Tetsushi Kakuda, HRC’s F1 project leader.

He has conceded that resources are “the most difficult point for us” now the 2026 programme has formally begun but “we are getting bigger resources”.

After joking that “everything” is a challenge with the engine rules, Kakuda added: “Technically, we have to have a bigger electrical technology and also we have to find a good combustion solution with sustainable fuel.

“And also, we have to solve our ‘less resources’ problem. That is a big challenge for us.”

This is understood to be a reference to the staffing of the project, with efforts under way to address the personnel shortfall resulting from its official F1 exit, rather than a financial matter.

Though Honda intends to spend less on F1 this time around as well, it is believed that its 2026 partner Aston Martin is making a significant financial contribution - similar to how Red Bull currently pays Honda effectively as a contractor to build, maintain and supply its engines until 2025.

That means Honda can commit to the project without it being the same financial drain as previously, while also spending what should be needed to build a competitive new engine.

It is understood that more details still need to be fleshed out for how the 2026 Honda power unit will come together.

Honda has increased, and is likely still increasing, its hybrid technology knowledge, with the loss of the MGU-H offset by a significantly upgraded MGU-K that takes the power output to almost 50/50 between internal combustion and the electrical side.

Presently, alongside building the engines, Honda supplies the battery cell to Red Bull Powertrains. Kakuda said that “for the future, we’d like to also control the same situation”, indicating HRC needs to find a way to be able to design, develop and build items like the battery pack - which may mean trying to buy back the UK site that was sold to Red Bull, for example.

Another option is to have a full-time facility on the much-vaunted Aston Martin technology ‘campus’, although it would seem to make it more likely that Honda will want a degree of separation to get the “control” that Kakuda referenced.

The positive for Honda is that unlike previous F1 exits and returns, it is not starting completely from scratch - partly because it has excelled in the engine rules cycle that immediately precedes the 2026 engine, and partly because it deliberately kept those small teams working on 2026 projects.

Honda has been working on the combustion side with a single-cylinder engine on the dyno and began assessments on uprated battery technology and 100% sustainable and synthetic fuels at the end of 2021.

“To study,” Kakuda stressed. “At that moment, we didn’t think [for certain] we would be joining Formula 1 from 2026.

“But we have already started.”

Another element to factor in, though - and this is where that 'less resources' reference is most applicable - is that key project members have left. Honda F1 leader Masashi Yamamoto left to become a Red Bull consultant, while Sakura boss Yasuaki Asaki has retired.

But technical director Toyoharu Tanabe has remained involved by leading the group of engineers working on the 2026 project prior to it being confirmed and representing Honda in all the meetings relating to the definition of the 2026 rules.

HRC technical director Masamitsu Motohashi, who replaced Tanabe in the most front-facing active role after 2021, is also said to be based in Japan now having previously worked on-site at grands prix as head of Honda's trackside operations.

Kakuda believes there is enough continuation for the 2015-21 project, which has ultimately won many races and titles, to be a successful guide for the 2026 programme too.

“Of course, we can use current knowledge for the 2026 development,” he said.

“[Before] the 2026 project, every time Honda completely stopped the Formula 1 project and then started from zero.

“But for 2026 we have continued participating in current Formula 1 and also some of the key personnel are still in our project members.

“So, it's a good position for future development.”
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/hond ... e-project/

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diffuser
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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organic wrote:
29 Sep 2023, 19:51
They've shown they can make the large leap between seasons before. I guess they need to do it again and hit the drawing board when it comes to the floor design. Somehow they run this seemingly very flat floor without running into porpoising issues so maybe it's not as basic as it looks from the photos we have (hopium?)
I didn't see a flat floor, I saw a floor with a couple of roller-coaster changes.

xReVo
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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To be honest, I wouldn't be happy if Aston Martin became a world championship car when Alonso leaves (2025?). In fact I hope that if the wind tunnel would be working in September 2024, they would give him another year of contract

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diffuser
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xReVo wrote:
01 Oct 2023, 12:35
To be honest, I wouldn't be happy if Aston Martin became a world championship car when Alonso leaves (2025?). In fact I hope that if the wind tunnel would be working in September 2024, they would give him another year of contract
It will likely be finished by then but then they need to go through a period of using both tunnels. A tuning period. They will switch fully sometime in the 2025 season.

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organic
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
01 Oct 2023, 16:51
xReVo wrote:
01 Oct 2023, 12:35
To be honest, I wouldn't be happy if Aston Martin became a world championship car when Alonso leaves (2025?). In fact I hope that if the wind tunnel would be working in September 2024, they would give him another year of contract
It will likely be finished by then but then they need to go through a period of using both tunnels. A tuning period. They will switch fully sometime in the 2025 season.
I thought I remember hearing that they had said the 2025 car will be built fully using the new tunnel?

KimiRai
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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organic wrote:
01 Oct 2023, 18:17
I thought I remember hearing that they had said the 2025 car will be built fully using the new tunnel?
Considering by most accounts it should be ready by late 2024 and the work onto the new car probably would have started earlier than that as is often the case, doubt it would be done fully with the new tunnel, but who knows.

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diffuser
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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KimiRai wrote:
01 Oct 2023, 18:49
organic wrote:
01 Oct 2023, 18:17
I thought I remember hearing that they had said the 2025 car will be built fully using the new tunnel?
Considering by most accounts it should be ready by late 2024 and the work onto the new car probably would have started earlier than that as is often the case, doubt it would be done fully with the new tunnel, but who knows.
Depends if you consider using both tunnels, primarily the Merc tunnel, as using the AMR tunnel to build the 2025 car.

Ground Effect
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Using McLaren as a blueprint, their wind tunnel came online, what, June 2023? From what they've said, first car to be fully developed using it would be the 2025 car. So you've got to assume AMR is effectively 1 year behind, meaning first fully developed car should be 2026. The 2025 car could and should have its in-season development in the new tunnel.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

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peewon
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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Ground Effect wrote:
01 Oct 2023, 23:47
Using McLaren as a blueprint, their wind tunnel came online, what, June 2023? From what they've said, first car to be fully developed using it would be the 2025 car. So you've got to assume AMR is effectively 1 year behind, meaning first fully developed car should be 2026. The 2025 car could and should have its in-season development in the new tunnel.
Mclaren is already using the wind tunnel for the current car.

https://racer.com/2023/09/08/mclaren-ge ... nd-tunnel/

AM should be able to use the wind tunnel for the second half of next season if everything goes to plan.

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diffuser
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peewon wrote:
03 Oct 2023, 01:45
Ground Effect wrote:
01 Oct 2023, 23:47
Using McLaren as a blueprint, their wind tunnel came online, what, June 2023? From what they've said, first car to be fully developed using it would be the 2025 car. So you've got to assume AMR is effectively 1 year behind, meaning first fully developed car should be 2026. The 2025 car could and should have its in-season development in the new tunnel.
Mclaren is already using the wind tunnel for the current car.

https://racer.com/2023/09/08/mclaren-ge ... nd-tunnel/

AM should be able to use the wind tunnel for the second half of next season if everything goes to plan.
Like I said, all Depends on what you consider "using". They're double checking everything in the Toyota wind tunnel.

For AMR it will be even bigger deal cause they're pretty much restricted to weekends at the Merc tunnel.

-wkst-
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
03 Oct 2023, 06:43
peewon wrote:
03 Oct 2023, 01:45
Ground Effect wrote:
01 Oct 2023, 23:47
Using McLaren as a blueprint, their wind tunnel came online, what, June 2023? From what they've said, first car to be fully developed using it would be the 2025 car. So you've got to assume AMR is effectively 1 year behind, meaning first fully developed car should be 2026. The 2025 car could and should have its in-season development in the new tunnel.
Mclaren is already using the wind tunnel for the current car.

https://racer.com/2023/09/08/mclaren-ge ... nd-tunnel/

AM should be able to use the wind tunnel for the second half of next season if everything goes to plan.
Like I said, all Depends on what you consider "using". They're double checking everything in the Toyota wind tunnel.

For AMR it will be even bigger deal cause they're pretty much restricted to weekends at the Merc tunnel.
They are restricted to the weekends, yes. But as we all know they are not allowed to be 24/7 in the tunnel anyway. So I would rather test my stuff on the weekends 10-15 minutes away from my factory, instead of Woking-Cologne.

issey
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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-wkst- wrote:
03 Oct 2023, 11:49
diffuser wrote:
03 Oct 2023, 06:43
peewon wrote:
03 Oct 2023, 01:45


Mclaren is already using the wind tunnel for the current car.

https://racer.com/2023/09/08/mclaren-ge ... nd-tunnel/

AM should be able to use the wind tunnel for the second half of next season if everything goes to plan.
Like I said, all Depends on what you consider "using". They're double checking everything in the Toyota wind tunnel.

For AMR it will be even bigger deal cause they're pretty much restricted to weekends at the Merc tunnel.
They are restricted to the weekends, yes. But as we all know they are not allowed to be 24/7 in the tunnel anyway. So I would rather test my stuff on the weekends 10-15 minutes away from my factory, instead of Woking-Cologne.
What are you saying makes literally no sense, having a own wind tunnel is so much better and has many benefits. Why do you think every top team has one? Because its a big advantage.

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diffuser
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issey wrote:
03 Oct 2023, 13:16
-wkst- wrote:
03 Oct 2023, 11:49
diffuser wrote:
03 Oct 2023, 06:43


Like I said, all Depends on what you consider "using". They're double checking everything in the Toyota wind tunnel.

For AMR it will be even bigger deal cause they're pretty much restricted to weekends at the Merc tunnel.
They are restricted to the weekends, yes. But as we all know they are not allowed to be 24/7 in the tunnel anyway. So I would rather test my stuff on the weekends 10-15 minutes away from my factory, instead of Woking-Cologne.
What are you saying makes literally no sense, having a own wind tunnel is so much better and has many benefits. Why do you think every top team has one? Because its a big advantage.
You are allowed to be in the tunnel 24x7. They only measure the time it's in use. You can spend as much time setting up an experiment, then on off.

-wkst-
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Re: 2023 Aston Martin | Aramco | Cognizant F1 Team

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@issey
It's not the first time you simply don't understand what I am writing and moreover what`s the topic.

Topic is if it's a bigger deal for AMR to double check things next year with their new tunnel and the Mercedes one, or currently for Mclaren with their new tunnel and the Toyota one.

@diffusor
I know that there is only a time limit, but from my amateur point of view (like everyone else here I guess) I believe teams have the knowledge how to set up such a tunnel (with help from outside). No question that they will need some adjustments.

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diffuser
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-wkst- wrote:
03 Oct 2023, 13:38
@issey
It's not the first time you simply don't understand what I am writing and moreover what`s the topic.

Topic is if it's a bigger deal for AMR to double check things next year with their new tunnel and the Mercedes one, or currently for Mclaren with their new tunnel and the Toyota one.

@diffusor
I know that there is only a time limit, but from my amateur point of view (like everyone else here I guess) I believe teams have the knowledge how to set up such a tunnel (with help from outside). No question that they will need some adjustments.
Think my comment was meant to support your argument. With you're own tunnel you can work Monday to Friday and not dismantle your experiments at the end of your time cause someone else is coming in to take over.

I think we're just spiting hairs ....will it help yes. Is it as helpful as what Stella's saying or are his comments a bit over the top? ...likely over the top. He's not gonna come out and say negative stuff about the tunnel when they've spent a ton of money on it. They've been waiting for a while for it.