2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[CHT]

This departure is somewhat abrupt and there was no announcement of replacement.

Fron Elliot comments, he mentioned about winning 8 WCC and thank his team without mentioning about Toto etc. I have reason to believe there was a fallout. Reminds me of the time when Newey had fall out with Ron Dennis who coincidentally is also team owner.


It will be interesting to see where Merc go from here..for sure Elliot departure will have some effect on some staffs who have worked with him all these years, from fighting to win races to multiple world champion

Honestly i think the position of CTO at merc is just a job to keep someone on the payroll. most of the day to day duties are already covered by the TD of the team. CTO seems more like an emeritus position.

Well your thinking is certainly without basis unless Mike Elliot middle name is TOTO

[Big Tea]

I would think the loss of Niki and Voles would leave a gap between the drivers and 'management' because the way the drivers present it is not usually what 'management' want to hear.
There are phrases that will get the back up of of the design teams when said in a particular way, and they are no doubt getting the raw info now rather than 'suggestions for improvement' as it would have been presented to them

[CHT]

Indeed a blame culture. The fact we have drivers in the media complaining engineers aren't listening and engineers in the media trying to explain why they aren't necessarily listening. It sounds a lot like a blame culture, a war of words in the media. There's no reason to have these discussions in public unless you are trying to assign blame in the eyes of the public. Him leaving of his own accord doesn't change much, would you want to work in an environment where your star driver is essentially engaging the media to make you look bad? Allison is hopefully more resilient to this kind of nonsense.

There are better examples of blame culture, we could have a team boss, and TD whinging about engines every year for over a decade. Publicly.
There are direct and natural consequences to failure at the highest level.
Elliott was replaced and eventually left of his volition.

I don't see why you are targeting Hamilton and trying to paint this as his fault. That's negative engagement.

Toto does remind me a lot of Ron Dennis because they are both strong-minded and temperamental team owners. When you have people like Toto, the risk is that it will create a yes-man culture. For LH it is easy to say that follow RBR but they have forgotten about the chassis limitation and that the win in Brazil did offer some hope that they were in the right direction for 2023.

Prior to Austin, I remember LH did pay a visit to the Merc factory. At Austin, LH suddenly springs to life while GR was less so. My guess is that something could have happened during LH's visit to the factory which lead to the eventual resignation of Elliot. And it is possible the improvement from the recent upgrade could have been amplified by LH driving harder to prove his visit to the factory has helped.

That's just my hypothesis

[ValeVida46]

Toto does remind me a lot of Ron Dennis because they are both strong-minded and temperamental team owners. When you have people like Toto, the risk is that it will create a yes-man culture. For LH it is easy to say that follow RBR but they have forgotten about the chassis limitation and that the win in Brazil did offer some hope that they were in the right direction for 2023.

Prior to Austin, I remember LH did pay a visit to the Merc factory. At Austin, LH suddenly springs to life while GR was less so. My guess is that something could have happened during LH's visit to the factory which lead to the eventual resignation of Elliot. And it is possible the improvement from the recent upgrade could have been amplified by LH driving harder to prove his visit to the factory has helped.

That's just my hypothesis

And there being an amicable separation between Elliott and Mercedes? This wasn't an acrimonious split like Newey from Macca or Costa from Ferrari or Fallows from Red Bull or a host of others we could mention.
Just 7 or so months ago people were saying how could Mercedes retain Elliott in his capacity when it became clear the W14 couldn't challenge the RB19. Elliott did incredibly well for Mercedes over 9 years, with near instant impact on the W04.
But there were some elementary flaws that were well documented in the ground effect era.
That came from his leadership, which was given opportunity to rectify with the 14. That didn't go to plan, again for some base decisions made with Elliott as leader.

He was side-lined for Allison 7 months ago, and this has nothing to do with LH factory visits, or blame culture, what Lewis says regarding car feedback or even Toto being like Ron Dennis.

This has everything to do with him having 2 cracks of the whip and unable to make the jump to challenge Red Bull.
Additionally being moved to CTO position, Elliott might not have wanted the role moving forwards.

But as a team, Mercedes cannot risk making the same mistake 3 times. Mike Elliott is not Adrian Newey and is a replaceable but talented guy, and while that is a bad thing for Mercedes now, it might not be in the future when team performance isn't so skewed in favour of an individual.

[chrisc90]

What happens if Allison’s creation isn’t a challenger to Red Bull next year?

[napoleon1981]

What happens if Allison’s creation isn’t a challenger to Red Bull next year?

It will be blamed on RB exceeding the budget cap.

[ValeVida46]

What happens if Allison’s creation isn’t a challenger to Red Bull next year?

Then he'd be 50% up the road on Ellis's opportunities. Or does Allison need a 100% hit rate out the box

[hollus]

Mercedes team thread. Mercedes.
Less Red Bull, less Horner, less Adrian, less Max, thanks.
Unless you gentlemen are just trying to stir the pot, that is?

[AMG.Tzan]

What happens if Allison’s creation isn’t a challenger to Red Bull next year?

I was asking the exact same thing on Twitter a few days ago! For some reason many think Alison will suddenly make the car a rocket, as if Elliot wasn’t there in the design team when they were designing dominant cars during 2014-2021!

I’m not expecting any miracles really! At least make a car close enough to RB to capitalize on weekends like Singapore…

[KiaeRo]

Wind tunnel is correlating really well according to Shovlin at 5:10, which is positive for the new season ahead.

[Cs98]

What happens if Allison’s creation isn’t a challenger to Red Bull next year?

Then he'd be 50% up the road on Ellis's opportunities. Or does Allison need a 100% hit rate out the box

He kind of does need to hit the mark instantly. By the time 2025 rolls around there will be little scope for a turnaround given how much focus will be dedicated to 2026 at that point. 2024 is a key season, a failure then will likely carry over for 2025 by simple virtue of the reg change.

[chrisc90]

What happens if Allison’s creation isn’t a challenger to Red Bull next year?

I was asking the exact same thing on Twitter a few days ago! For some reason many think Alison will suddenly make the car a rocket, as if Elliot wasn’t there in the design team when they were designing dominant cars during 2014-2021!

I’m not expecting any miracles really! At least make a car close enough to RB to capitalize on weekends like Singapore…

Ill be massively surprised if the car turns out to be a rocket from 1st thing in testing in 2024.

It just seems a bit strange reading comments on here, other sites and other media and it all seems that the last 2 years have been all Elliots fault. A lot of people are thinking with him gone and Allison in, its going to be like opening the curtains on a bright sunny day and there being a lovely meadow outside looking all bright and beautiful.

I mean, who was responsible for the zero pods continuing into 2023? Was it all Elliots pushing towards, or was there other key members of the team such as other aero people and Toto thinking they seen a win in Brazil and genuinely thought that a concept had hope based off 1 or 2 races. Personally id say there is more than 1 person calling the shots on that one.

The concern here really is, how much are other competitors going to develop aswell? How much R&D and designs have gone into looking at say a RB style sidepod, vs ferrari vs Aston Martin for example. Realistically, how far are/would Mercedes be on that sort of route.

The 2024 Red Bull car, if thats what Mercedes are wanting to compete with, is a car thats going to roll out the pit garage knowing its had 2/3 of 2023 on the 2024 development going into it. Something like that, and development time (not just over winter) is absolutely MEGA.

As you said, there needs to be a car there that can pick up the pieces when other teams have a off day, such as Singapore for example.

[Big Tea]

And there being an amicable separation between Elliott and Mercedes? This wasn't an acrimonious split like Newey from Macca or Costa from Ferrari or Fallows from Red Bull or a host of others we could mention.
Just 7 or so months ago people were saying how could Mercedes retain Elliott in his capacity when it became clear the W14 couldn't challenge the RB19. Elliott did incredibly well for Mercedes over 9 years, with near instant impact on the W04.
But there were some elementary flaws that were well documented in the ground effect era.
That came from his leadership, which was given opportunity to rectify with the 14. That didn't go to plan, again for some base decisions made with Elliott as leader.

He was side-lined for Allison 7 months ago, and this has nothing to do with LH factory visits, or blame culture, what Lewis says regarding car feedback or even Toto being like Ron Dennis.

This has everything to do with him having 2 cracks of the whip and unable to make the jump to challenge Red Bull.
Additionally being moved to CTO position, Elliott might not have wanted the role moving forwards.

But as a team, Mercedes cannot risk making the same mistake 3 times. Mike Elliott is not Adrian Newey and is a replaceable but talented guy, and while that is a bad thing for Mercedes now, it might not be in the future when team performance isn't so skewed in favour of an individual.

We are told this, but Toto's statement said -“Mike has been one of the pillars of the team’s achievements over the past decade, and it’s with truly mixed feelings that we say goodbye to him today.

Not how sorry we are to see him go, or words to that effect?

[CHT]

And there being an amicable separation between Elliott and Mercedes? This wasn't an acrimonious split like Newey from Macca or Costa from Ferrari or Fallows from Red Bull or a host of others we could mention.
Just 7 or so months ago people were saying how could Mercedes retain Elliott in his capacity when it became clear the W14 couldn't challenge the RB19. Elliott did incredibly well for Mercedes over 9 years, with near instant impact on the W04.
But there were some elementary flaws that were well documented in the ground effect era.
That came from his leadership, which was given opportunity to rectify with the 14. That didn't go to plan, again for some base decisions made with Elliott as leader.

He was side-lined for Allison 7 months ago, and this has nothing to do with LH factory visits, or blame culture, what Lewis says regarding car feedback or even Toto being like Ron Dennis.

This has everything to do with him having 2 cracks of the whip and unable to make the jump to challenge Red Bull.
Additionally being moved to CTO position, Elliott might not have wanted the role moving forwards.

But as a team, Mercedes cannot risk making the same mistake 3 times. Mike Elliott is not Adrian Newey and is a replaceable but talented guy, and while that is a bad thing for Mercedes now, it might not be in the future when team performance isn't so skewed in favour of an individual.

We are told this, but Toto's statement said -“Mike has been one of the pillars of the team’s achievements over the past decade, and it’s with truly mixed feelings that we say goodbye to him today.

Not how sorry we are to see him go, or words to that effect?

Resignation, immediate departure, and sudden announcements involving a very senior team member or executive are never amicable unless it is for health or personal reasons. The fact that Elliot made a comment about being part of the team from the early struggle to winning championships, and being part of the team that chart the technical strategy going forward, was intended to remind Merc that they have lost a loyal and valuable team member, for reasons his colleagues know best

Now that Mike has been made scrap goat for the zero side pod that angers LH, the pressure will now be on James Allison and LH to deliver. If they fail, then I am sure the Merc team's spirit will collapse like a deck of cards.

[ValeVida46]

What happens if Allison’s creation isn’t a challenger to Red Bull next year?

Then he'd be 50% up the road on Ellis's opportunities. Or does Allison need a 100% hit rate out the box

He kind of does need to hit the mark instantly. By the time 2025 rolls around there will be little scope for a turnaround given how much focus will be dedicated to 2026 at that point. 2024 is a key season, a failure then will likely carry over for 2025 by simple virtue of the reg change.

We've seen progress and a change of direction since he's taken over from Elliott.
Arbitrary goals are secondary to progress.