2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Hammerfist
Hammerfist
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Joined: 06 Apr 2017, 04:18

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Well let's see how this new floor can perform with lower downforce wings in Vegas. We haven't seen that yet. I know they are going to get murdered with those long straights still but this track isn't like Monza, as it is quite a bit more technical. So a good chassis should gain a lot in the twisty bits. So they should be well clear of Aston, Alpine and Alfa Tauri at least. The Ferraris and Mclarens will be faster, hopefully not in another league though.

Hammerfist
Hammerfist
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Joined: 06 Apr 2017, 04:18

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Sometimes I think this team is being sabotaged from the inside. I just cannot shake out that story earlier this year of the rumored error with the wind tunnel scale models, and then this utterly strange performance level this weekend, even Austin seemed uncharacteristic for them to make such a mistake. Maybe RBR planted a mole in there. Who might that be? Hmmm...

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ValeVida46
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Joined: 23 Feb 2023, 13:36

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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organic wrote:
05 Nov 2023, 21:35
To me it seemed like a setup issue as well. It's a sprint and they were likely conservative after the issues at COTA
Merc seem to be hardest hit on sprint weekends.
This car just needs a lot of time to get the right set up and when running is limited it's even harder to find.

6th and 8th in Baku
7th and 8th in Austria
4th and 6th in Belgium
4th and DNF in Qatar
5th and DQ in US
8th and DNF in Sao Paolo

The avg results are below par for the avg non sprint race. Systemic issues that are showing merc needs run time to get the best out of a well publicised compromised car.

DGP123
DGP123
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Joined: 15 Sep 2022, 17:31

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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On a non sprint weekends, their Friday night work is the difference maker. Always has been during this reg.

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atanatizante
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Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 15:33

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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I don`t know why everybody at the Merc is hiding around the bush and not talking about the importance of the car`s window setup hence the tyres that need to work in their optimum setup range.

The RB19 is built around this strategy not the other way around as almost everybody is doing nowadays with these ground-effect cars. This is something that even all W cars after 2014 didn't achieve. Everybody is talking about the aero part of the car but ignores the increased importance of the tyres, especially when they went to the 18-inch format and the more and more robust tyre shoulder to cope with yearly increasing lateral loading due to cars being faster from one championship to another.

The simple fact is that the RB19 car is not just the efficient car on the grid due to aero but due to how can manage to work in the sweet spot/working temp window of any kind of tyres from C0 to C5 at any track but most of all at any track temps, as we could see from the 6 month ago. That`s why they have the best tyre management. And regarding what happened in Singapore we all know by now that it was about the ride height rather than a tyre-related issue ...

Now just imagine for a second what if the RB19 car would have the smallest working window and maybe you could realize what W14 and other cars have to endure at the present. In FP1 the track temp was almost constant throughout the session at some 43 degrees Celsius:

Image

Then in the Sprint race, the track rose by almost 10 degrees (from 43 in FP1), which effectively lent over the tyre operation window for the C4 soft tyre, a tyre which after C5 has the lowest temp working window and smallest working temp range. Yeah, at the end of the race the track temp went to 40 degrees but the tyres were long gone by now ...

Image

In the race, the track temp went from 47 degrees at the start to 36 at the end of it but after yesterday they knew that they needed a lot of tyre management, knowing that they`ll start with a car on a full tank.

Image

Indeed the ride height didn`t allow them to increase downforce hence a better tyres management but this wasn`t the most important factor why they failed in this race. And regarding their slowest top speed there was a reason to do that for both having last year RUS`s experience from last year when he went for a higher DF setup than HAM and also in order to compensate for rising the car ...
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
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Farnborough
Farnborough
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Joined: 18 Mar 2023, 14:15

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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atanatizante wrote:
06 Nov 2023, 12:27
I don`t know why everybody at the Merc is hiding around the bush and not talking about the importance of the car`s window setup hence the tyres that need to work in their optimum setup range.

The RB19 is built around this strategy not the other way around as almost everybody is doing nowadays with these ground-effect cars. This is something that even all W cars after 2014 didn't achieve. Everybody is talking about the aero part of the car but ignores the increased importance of the tyres, especially when they went to the 18-inch format and the more and more robust tyre shoulder to cope with yearly increasing lateral loading due to cars being faster from one championship to another.

The simple fact is that the RB19 car is not just the efficient car on the grid due to aero but due to how can manage to work in the sweet spot/working temp window of any kind of tyres from C0 to C5 at any track but most of all at any track temps, as we could see from the 6 month ago. That`s why they have the best tyre management. And regarding what happened in Singapore we all know by now that it was about the ride height rather than a tyre-related issue ...

Now just imagine for a second what if the RB19 car would have the smallest working window and maybe you could realize what W14 and other cars have to endure at the present. In FP1 the track temp was almost constant throughout the session at some 43 degrees Celsius:

http://postimg.cc/kDH2LkNg

Then in the Sprint race, the track rose by almost 10 degrees (from 43 in FP1), which effectively lent over the tyre operation window for the C4 soft tyre, a tyre which after C5 has the lowest temp working window and smallest working temp range. Yeah, at the end of the race the track temp went to 40 degrees but the tyres were long gone by now ...

http://postimg.cc/Y42cntS9

In the race, the track temp went from 47 degrees at the start to 36 at the end of it but after yesterday they knew that they needed a lot of tyre management, knowing that they`ll start with a car on a full tank.

http://postimg.cc/jCypbMFP

Indeed the ride height didn`t allow them to increase downforce hence a better tyres management but this wasn`t the most important factor why they failed in this race. And regarding their slowest top speed there was a reason to do that for both having last year RUS`s experience from last year when he went for a higher DF setup than HAM and also in order to compensate for rising the car ...
Very well observed and put here in detail.

Most commentary has centred around the aero and visible elements of that, while almost completely ignoring the shift in wheel rim size and it's affect on tyre performance.

It was "projected" long before it took place, that the shift in tyre's size and how they would compromise by narrowing the optimum operating window in comparison to their smaller rimmed predecessor.

Notably, I recall projection of lower absolute peak grip along with the need to present the tyre to the track in a more considered manner by the suspension characteristics. This to avoid "spiking" the tyre structure straight through its aimed for optimum and out the other side completely. Looks accurate as we can see it now.
The leader, in RB chassis, is acknowledged by observers and designers to have the most comprehensive review of a suspension system approach, without which the aero has little chance of consistently enacting its desired forces to be readily interpreted by the team running it in practical terms.

We have in effect got here, in MB chassis, the worst case scenario in being able to generate load, but unable to consistently refine that ability into running the tyre in their narrow band of high performce.

One easily recognised element of this is to look at the rear tyres when new and just started to roll, or spin at a race pitstop. With the camber wear mark coming onto tread area to see what static camber they are running.
Notable in the RB is that they are essentially flat, near zero camber, which may not favour absolute lateral load peak, but pay out handsomely in durability in race stint. Probably giving that close comparison in pure qualli with MB chassis often getting close in perfect single lap pace, only to give huge detrimental variance during a stint.

This MB chassis needs a complete root and branch rethink, nothing else will ultimately get it there.

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lio007
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Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 23:03
Location: Austria

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Any idea if the departure of Loic Serra has an effect on their setups? He was Performance Director, but I don't know if a Performance Director is even involved in daily business setup-directions?

napoleon1981
napoleon1981
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Joined: 12 Sep 2021, 17:19

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Hammerfist wrote:
06 Nov 2023, 05:12
Sometimes I think this team is being sabotaged from the inside. I just cannot shake out that story earlier this year of the rumored error with the wind tunnel scale models, and then this utterly strange performance level this weekend, even Austin seemed uncharacteristic for them to make such a mistake. Maybe RBR planted a mole in there. Who might that be? Hmmm...
That makes total sense, with the windtunnel penalty RB had extra headcount available and they moved some to Merc to mess with their windtunnel model. Genius.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Does anyone know why Russell retired? Is it possible they just pulled him because he wouldn't score points?
A lion must kill its prey.

Luscion
Luscion
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Joined: 13 Feb 2023, 01:37

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
06 Nov 2023, 15:32
Does anyone know why Russell retired? Is it possible they just pulled him because he wouldn't score points?
PU was about to blow up, high engine and oil temps, "risk of immanent failure" according to merc

CHT
CHT
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 05:24

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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How old was Russel engine? Is this the first merc PU failure?

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Luscion wrote:
06 Nov 2023, 16:12
AR3-GP wrote:
06 Nov 2023, 15:32
Does anyone know why Russell retired? Is it possible they just pulled him because he wouldn't score points?
PU was about to blow up, high engine and oil temps, "risk of immanent failure" according to merc
Wasn't he in clean air before he retired? Not saying Merc was lying, but the opposite. They really missed their sums if he was overheating in clean air :wtf:
A lion must kill its prey.

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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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I was wondering if it would have been worth them using it as a test session once the engine cooled. They would be limited to what they can do from the pit box, but it still leaves quite a few 'test runs' on different settings to things like wing or re-running on used tyre etc.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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organic
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Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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CHT wrote:
06 Nov 2023, 16:57
How old was Russel engine? Is this the first merc PU failure?
Lando's failure @ Bahrain & Russell's PU failure @ Australia have already happened

DDopey
DDopey
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Joined: 02 Nov 2022, 09:54

Re: 2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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CHT wrote:
06 Nov 2023, 16:57
How old was Russel engine? Is this the first merc PU failure?
Toto said it was the engines last run.