I think it's two-fold. Each customer may have to do different levels of cooling management in the races based on how effective their cooling systems are (Merc is one of the worst) but also generally the Merc PU has a congested layout due to zero-pod tight packaging requirements so it gets hotter more readily than some other PUs. Frigid temps in Vegas must have made them really happy. Hungary killed them.
If you compare to Lap 16 of Leclerc in qualifying the difference on the straights as a whole is negligible (for some reason the last lap in Q3 of Leclerc was one of the “slowest” among his on the straights), Ferrari still having the upper hand in acceleration until 290-300 (where power is more important than drag); no doubt Mercedes PU was a step faster than previous weekends though, even if I had already noticed some interesting speed traces from Mclaren at Suzuka and Interlagos.AR3-GP wrote: ↑21 Nov 2023, 17:05If I didn't know any better, I'd say Mercedes had a real "party mode" on the ICE side which they were able to use because of the weather.
https://i.postimg.cc/q72vJZLC/image.png
The Merc PU has probably been the most up and down this year. More power than anyone in the cold of Las Vegas, but completely nerfed and neutralized in the hot conditions of Hungary.
For most of that, I'd imagine McLaren are 2nd but their first 7 races were very slow to bump them down to 5th
They also ran max downforce in Hungary. And they did get pole in Hungary and imo were the second best car in the race. So no, I don't think you can call that being neutralized.AR3-GP wrote: ↑21 Nov 2023, 17:05If I didn't know any better, I'd say Mercedes had a real "party mode" on the ICE side which they were able to use because of the weather.
https://i.postimg.cc/q72vJZLC/image.png
The Merc PU has probably been the most up and down this year. More power than anyone in the cold of Las Vegas, but completely nerfed and neutralized in the hot conditions of Hungary.
In the first half, Merc no more than 3rd best, in the 2nd half no more than 3rd best again (prob around 4th in fairness).
If Wolff would like Mercedes GP to be back in championship contention, as opposed to a strong upper midfield team, does he have a plan to make it happen? "Wait for Allison to do his magic?"
Toto never really did anything in that team, how could he start now? Brawn built the team up after Honda left, PU department got the unlimited budget for hybrid PUs, Ecclestone and Lauda got Lewis in. Now that the chassis is once again the deciding factor, they are stuck as the 3rd best car for the second season and it will take more than Allison to improve to 2nd best car, let alone the best.JordanMugen wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 13:43If Wolff would like Mercedes GP to be back in championship contention, as opposed to a strong upper midfield team, does he have a plan to make it happen? "Wait for Allison to do his magic?"
Yeah pretty much. They've fired whoever they had to fire, dealt with whatever data correlation issues they had last year and have been using the W14 as a development platform for W15. So far whatever Mercedes has been doing looks promising for next year.JordanMugen wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 13:43If Wolff would like Mercedes GP to be back in championship contention, as opposed to a strong upper midfield team, does he have a plan to make it happen? "Wait for Allison to do his magic?"
I think there's a couple things going for Merc this season. Them realizing how important suspension is and giving the W15 bespoke suspension, finally upgrading their pit stop equipment, their wind tunnel and on track data correlating this year, every upgrade they brought this season did what it should have which is a 180 from last year. This new floor which was a test to see if they were going in the right direction works and will most likely be improved upon during the winter, reportedly no longer having to sacrifice engine power due to the zero pod limitations with the new concepta and said that their focus for next year is performance as apposed to the last two years where they were just solving one problem after the next. They know what they need to do to get to the top again but whether they can find the laptime to challenge the RB20 is another story, guess we'll see end of Februarychrisc90 wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 14:24It would be interesting to correct that for McLaren who brought the upgrade in austria. Definitely a bit skewed given they were firm last before that upgrade. Austria onwards would be a decent bet.
Maybe doing it driver relative would be better? Who knows how they are calculating these times? As in you have RB with max 1 and checo p5 you average out p2.5. So if one driver considerably better and one underperforms is it messing with the team average?
Merc need a LOT of time to catch up to red bull/max. I’d dare say .750 to bring a decent challenge.
They probably better off doing a 2021 style - max the engine out and take the 5 spot penalty.
I think Vanja sums it up, as others have previously. This is the single most biggest time Toto needs to bring the team forwards. There is not one single excuse they can use for the change from W14 into W15. Especially when they have hinted at all these certain fundamental changes that need to be addressed
Are you insinuating that the W14 suspension is 'off the shelf'? It already is 'bespoke'.Luscion wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 16:47I think there's a couple things going for Merc this season. Them realizing how important suspension is and giving the W15 bespoke suspension,chrisc90 wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 14:24It would be interesting to correct that for McLaren who brought the upgrade in austria. Definitely a bit skewed given they were firm last before that upgrade. Austria onwards would be a decent bet.
Maybe doing it driver relative would be better? Who knows how they are calculating these times? As in you have RB with max 1 and checo p5 you average out p2.5. So if one driver considerably better and one underperforms is it messing with the team average?
Merc need a LOT of time to catch up to red bull/max. I’d dare say .750 to bring a decent challenge.
They probably better off doing a 2021 style - max the engine out and take the 5 spot penalty.
I think Vanja sums it up, as others have previously. This is the single most biggest time Toto needs to bring the team forwards. There is not one single excuse they can use for the change from W14 into W15. Especially when they have hinted at all these certain fundamental changes that need to be addressed
Everyone had Max downforce in Hungary. Hamilton and Russell were overheating in Hungary and this was rerported in the post-race news cycle.Hammerfist wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 08:18They also ran max downforce in Hungary. And they did get pole in Hungary and imo were the second best car in the race. So no, I don't think you can call that being neutralized.AR3-GP wrote: ↑21 Nov 2023, 17:05If I didn't know any better, I'd say Mercedes had a real "party mode" on the ICE side which they were able to use because of the weather.
https://i.postimg.cc/q72vJZLC/image.png
The Merc PU has probably been the most up and down this year. More power than anyone in the cold of Las Vegas, but completely nerfed and neutralized in the hot conditions of Hungary.
Very satisfactory indeed214270 wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 13:35In the first half, Merc no more than 3rd best, in the 2nd half no more than 3rd best again (prob around 4th in fairness).
Coming in 3rd, drivers/constructors is a pretty satisfactory achievement all things considered; let’s hope AD is positive.
No I think the bespoke thing simply means a different suspension possibly both front and rear compared to the W14, shovlin talked about how they found 'a rich seem of development' in suspension a couple months ago, how they always(assume he means from the w13 onward) had a problem with either weak rear on entry or poor front at the apex and that their looking at how to bring the aero and vehicle dynamics togetherorganic wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 17:04Are you insinuating that the W14 suspension is 'off the shelf'? It already is 'bespoke'.Luscion wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 16:47I think there's a couple things going for Merc this season. Them realizing how important suspension is and giving the W15 bespoke suspension,chrisc90 wrote: ↑22 Nov 2023, 14:24It would be interesting to correct that for McLaren who brought the upgrade in austria. Definitely a bit skewed given they were firm last before that upgrade. Austria onwards would be a decent bet.
Maybe doing it driver relative would be better? Who knows how they are calculating these times? As in you have RB with max 1 and checo p5 you average out p2.5. So if one driver considerably better and one underperforms is it messing with the team average?
Merc need a LOT of time to catch up to red bull/max. I’d dare say .750 to bring a decent challenge.
They probably better off doing a 2021 style - max the engine out and take the 5 spot penalty.
I think Vanja sums it up, as others have previously. This is the single most biggest time Toto needs to bring the team forwards. There is not one single excuse they can use for the change from W14 into W15. Especially when they have hinted at all these certain fundamental changes that need to be addressed
I thought the team were aware of suspension woes in '22: the ride was terrible according to both drivers' constant complaints even after porpoising was 'solved' for them & numerous times the team said that they needed mechanical fixes not just aero hence development of the W13 could not solve some of their main issues... and that they would happen in the off-season with suspension...
I think more than anything they discovered with the W14 that their aero was the issue. AMR's success with Merc's rear-suspension among other things demonstrated that from the get-go.
They obviously knew their aero development was poor over the winter too. They had model issues and individuals involved were fired before the season started. They had begun abandoning the zeropod concept already by pre-season testing.
