Downwash, Effective AoA, Induce drag, Misconceptions..

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Fluido
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Downwash, Effective AoA, Induce drag, Misconceptions..

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@Vanja #66

At this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP8jvyD1Ovc from 18:15 -19:30 author explain that wing fly in its own downwash/downdraft, because ahead of wing air already moves downward.

I dont see downward airflow ahead of wing, I see only upwash ahead of wing like CFD picture show. I see downwash from approx. 1/4 chord to trailing edge..
(In my logic wing can fly in downwash only if he fly behind other aircraft.)

CFD show streamlines of wing at one position, so we see wing profile/airfoil.
Image


This picture show how downwash affect wing AoA, so effective AoA is smaller then "freestream AoA"
This is source of induced drag(Di).
Image

1. How wing fly in own downwash and how wing AoA is reduced if I see upwash ahead of wing?
Is this just match concept how to describe induced drag or real flow?

(I have some my opinion about this, but I also want to hear others..)
Last edited by Fluido on 20 Dec 2023, 00:16, edited 3 times in total.

beschadigunc
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Re: Downwash, Effective AoA, Induced drag

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Fluido wrote:
19 Dec 2023, 11:16
@Vanja #66

At this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP8jvyD1Ovc from 18:15 -19:30 author explain that wing fly in its own downwash/downdraft, because ahead of wing air already moves downward.

I dont see downward airflow ahead of wing, I see only upwash ahead of wing like CFD picture show. I see downwash from approx. 1/4 chord to trailing edge..
(In my logic wing can fly in downwash only if he fly behind other aircraft.)

CFD show streamlines of wing at one position, so we see wing profile/airfoil.
https://i.stack.imgur.com/EaQ0a.jpg


This picture show how downwash affect wing AoA, so effective AoA is smaller then "freestream AoA"
This is source of induced drag(Di).
https://www.researchgate.net/publicati ... -wing.ppm

1. How wing fly in own downwash and how wing AoA is reduced if I see upwash ahead of wing?
Is this just match concept how to describe induced drag or real flow?

(I have some my opinion about this, but I also want to hear others..)
Saw your old post aswell regarding diffusers. The thing you are missing is the basics. Drag is nothing but a force vector that is resultant of local pressure gradient. Aka if you have suction facing backwards its drag nothing more nothing less. How that interacts with seperation AoA or local vortices on surface is another topic but all that matters is resultant suction and how much of it is pointing in which direction. Also dont have time to teach basics of aero but to understand how a wing works. Write how a wing works paper into google and read that paper. Look for variational lift mechanics paper to really understand or if you want to just get the circulation of flow around the wing right looks for circulation of a lifting wing in google.

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hollus
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Re: Downwash, Effective AoA, Induced drag

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Just in case we are focusing on drag, this off-topic thread is a good place to bring another (a bit left field) point of view.
The air was moving horizontally relative to the car when it was in front of the car, and, once behind the car, it has a quite sizeable vertical velocity component. Unless you have given energy to that air, that new vertical velocity component comes at the cost of the old horizontal velocity component.
And if you have removed horizontal velocity form the air, you have given it to the car ---> AKA drag. Molecule pushes molecule pushes molecule pushes molecule... pushing the air up ends up pushing the car back. Conservation of momentum makes that more or less unavoidable, and it becomes one component of drag.
Rivals, not enemies.

beschadigunc
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Re: Downwash, Effective AoA, Induced drag

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hollus wrote:
19 Dec 2023, 22:57
Just in case we are focusing on drag, this off-topic thread is a good place to bring another (a bit left field) point of view.
The air was moving horizontally relative to the car when it was in front of the car, and, once behind the car, it has a quite sizeable vertical velocity component. Unless you have given energy to that air, that new vertical velocity component comes at the cost of the old horizontal velocity component.
And if you have removed horizontal velocity form the air, you have given it to the car ---> AKA drag. Molecule pushes molecule pushes molecule pushes molecule... pushing the air up ends up pushing the car back. Conservation of momentum makes that more or less unavoidable, and it becomes one component of drag.
Well yes and not quite. Aerodynamic drag is simply the change of pressure around the object. What you describe talks about high pressure in front being deflected which yes if its higher that will induce a force on the body but main culprit of aerodynamic drag is the suction drag aka in road cars the base drag. Solar cars on the other hand try to make use of thrusting geometries to reduce drag aka they load up the upmost forward facing side panels to increase thrust of the vehicle

Fluido
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Re: Downwash, Effective AoA, Induced drag

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There is lots of misconceptions in aerodynamics, Doug Mclean just because so many misconceptions decide to write a book "Understanding Aerodynamics: Arguing from the Real Physics".
Problem is in so many books we have so many wrong conclusions/explanations, so even some students like parrots repeat these nonsense.
Equal transit time, wing tip vortex cause induced drag, etc etc


[media] [/media]

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Vanja #66
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Re: Downwash, Effective AoA, Induce drag, Misconceptions..

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Fluido wrote:
19 Dec 2023, 11:16
@Vanja #66

At this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP8jvyD1Ovc from 18:15 -19:30 author explain that wing fly in its own downwash/downdraft, because ahead of wing air already moves downward.

I dont see downward airflow ahead of wing, I see only upwash ahead of wing like CFD picture show. I see downwash from approx. 1/4 chord to trailing edge..
(In my logic wing can fly in downwash only if he fly behind other aircraft.)

CFD show streamlines of wing at one position, so we see wing profile/airfoil.
https://i.stack.imgur.com/EaQ0a.jpg


This picture show how downwash affect wing AoA, so effective AoA is smaller then "freestream AoA"
This is source of induced drag(Di).
https://www.researchgate.net/publicati ... -wing.ppm

1. How wing fly in own downwash and how wing AoA is reduced if I see upwash ahead of wing?
Is this just match concept how to describe induced drag or real flow?

(I have some my opinion about this, but I also want to hear others..)
I think this is quite an old video and an explanation that was since proven wrong. You always have a local airflow bend more towards the suction side from the stagnation point, but this is just locally. The wing tip vortices are generated at wing tips and they don't have a way of inducing vortical movement before you have a pressure difference on the wing surfaces.

Upawrds and downwards winds and their influence on induced AoA are another thing and this is just a mathematical explanation of wind changing direction in Cartesian coordinate system.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

Fluido
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Re: Downwash, Effective AoA, Induce drag, Misconceptions..

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Vanja #66 wrote:
20 Dec 2023, 12:03


I think this is quite an old video and an explanation that was since proven wrong. You always have a local airflow bend more towards the suction side from the stagnation point, but this is just locally. The wing tip vortices are generated at wing tips and they don't have a way of inducing vortical movement before you have a pressure difference on the wing surfaces.

Upawrds and downwards winds and their influence on induced AoA are another thing and this is just a mathematical explanation of wind changing direction in Cartesian coordinate system.
There are some big misconceptions and misinterpretations about induced drag, often write in many many books and in aero talk.


Can we say that downwash ahead of wing(even if it not exist in real life, just as math concept) reduce upwash ahead of wing, so wing(3D) has smaller upwash then airfoil(2D)?

Wing tip vortices cant induce downaward velocity ahead of wing in real flow
Image


Image

Upwash ahead of wing for different aspect ratios
Image

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Vanja #66
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Re: Downwash, Effective AoA, Induce drag, Misconceptions..

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Fluido wrote:
20 Dec 2023, 12:47
Can we say that downwash ahead of wing(even if it not exist in real life, just as math concept) reduce upwash ahead of wing, so wing(3D) has smaller upwash then airfoil(2D)?

Wing tip vortices cant induce downaward velocity ahead of wing in real flow
https://i.stack.imgur.com/sML6I.jpg
Well the first thing this illustration lacks is a base in real life, it explains the downwash with wing tip vortices which would mean there is no downwash in 2D flow :mrgreen: According to Kutta-Joukowski theorem you have the bounding vortex which "forces" upwash in front of and downwash behind of aero foil, this is ok but it is misrepresented on the top of this illustration.

If this is how the circulation would change the flow field, there would be no lift since there would be no change in momentum of the fluid. The pressure field, the velocity field, the free stream flow and the resulting circulation are all various, codependent aspects of the phenomena that is Aerodynamic Lift.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

Fluido
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Re: Downwash, Effective AoA, Induce drag, Misconceptions..

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Vanja #66 wrote:
20 Dec 2023, 16:29

Well the first thing this illustration lacks is a base in real life, it explains the downwash with wing tip vortices which would mean there is no downwash in 2D flow :mrgreen:
Yes wing set in wind tunnel from wall to wall (airfoil)dont have downwash downstream.

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Vanja #66
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Re: Downwash, Effective AoA, Induce drag, Misconceptions..

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Fluido wrote:
20 Dec 2023, 17:10
Yes wing set in wind tunnel from wall to wall (airfoil)dont have downwash downstream.
Of course they do, even potential 2D flow features downwash :mrgreen:
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

Fluido
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Re: Downwash, Effective AoA, Induce drag, Misconceptions..

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Vanja #66 wrote:
20 Dec 2023, 20:42
Fluido wrote:
20 Dec 2023, 17:10
Yes wing set in wind tunnel from wall to wall (airfoil)dont have downwash downstream.
Of course they do, even potential 2D flow features downwash :mrgreen:
But if 2d flow has downwash why dont have induced vertical velocity which reduce AoA?

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Vanja #66
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Re: Downwash, Effective AoA, Induce drag, Misconceptions..

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Fluido wrote:
20 Dec 2023, 21:33
But if 2d flow has downwash why dont have induced vertical velocity which reduce AoA?
I will write a bit longer reply later this evening, there are a couple of things I want to include in detail and it will take me more than a few minutes :wink:
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

Fluido
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Re: Downwash, Effective AoA, Induce drag, Misconceptions..

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Vanja #66 wrote:
21 Dec 2023, 09:42
Fluido wrote:
20 Dec 2023, 21:33
But if 2d flow has downwash why dont have induced vertical velocity which reduce AoA?
I will write a bit longer reply later this evening, there are a couple of things I want to include in detail and it will take me more than a few minutes :wink:
Ok

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Vanja #66
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Re: Downwash, Effective AoA, Induce drag, Misconceptions..

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Fluido wrote:
20 Dec 2023, 21:33
But if 2d flow has downwash why dont have induced vertical velocity which reduce AoA?
There's gonna be a few things that I will mention and I will give my view on them which is different from the generally accepted theories of Lift.

First up, we have the expression for downwash angle, which is calculated using Aspect Ratio. The origin of this is Momentum Theory of Lift. As we see, there are some assumptions that lead to this formulation.

https://www.onemetre.net/design/downwas ... mentum.htm

Image

Image

As usual, the article makes the typical conclusion:

Interestingly, downwash is a three-dimensional effect. It "vanishes" with wings of infinite AR.
In my view, this is the same as 0=0 -> 0*1=0*2 -> 1=2. Going back to the assumption of Momentum theory, if there is no downwash angle, the infinite AR wing (infinite span, so 2D wing) generates no Lift. And just like that, the conclusion above becomes completely false :) This is because this formula is an engineering formula, made under assumptions to simplify the math but that don't change the end result dramatically. The "nature" of the formula itself is not accurate.

On the other hand, induced angle should be considered as 3D phenomena only, on a wing with a tip where you have spillage etc. So we have an assumption that this induced angle is a product of downwash phenomena. This would mean that you have a change in AoA in front of the finite-span wing which changes locally. This is one explanation which was offered a long time ago.

The way my professor explained this (or at least how I remember it) is different. We start with span-wise pressure distribution. Since the wing ends at the tip, there is no pressure difference at the tip and this is of course the truth since the spillage between top and bottom side that leads to the tip vortex equalises the pressure locally. This means that near the tip you will face a drop in pressure distribution, the nature of this drop depends on wing geometry (rectangular wing, tapered wing, elliptical wing, twist or no twist angle, etc) but it's always there.

Image

So with this drop in pressure (local lift) you have an aerofoil and an AoA and this should result in Lift according to the general Lift formula, but the lift is smaller and at one point - non existent. The simple way to give an engineering mathematical explanation is to introduce the induced angle which "reduces" local AoA. Therefore, the downwash induced angle explanation is questionable in my view.

I'm not saying locally the downwash gets amplified by wing tip vortices, it does. But it's not the (only) cause of downwash and it doesn't explain the induced angle properly.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

Fluido
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Re: Downwash, Effective AoA, Induce drag, Misconceptions..

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Vanja #66 wrote:
23 Dec 2023, 00:26

Interestingly, downwash is a three-dimensional effect. It "vanishes" with wings of infinite AR.
In my view, this is the same as 0=0 -> 0*1=0*2 -> 1=2. Going back to the assumption of Momentum theory, if there is no downwash angle, the infinite AR wing (infinite span, so 2D wing) generates no Lift.
Do you agree with answer from PeterKampf?
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/que ... 295_44932