Ferrari SF-24

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f1316
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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organic wrote:
13 Feb 2024, 15:06
Something I notice when watching the car on track is the nose is much wider than before

Yes, I think this is similar to the Alpine and likely for the same reason - both are doing the F2001 trick of using the nose to produce some additional downforce at the front. Alpine have a lower powered engine and so likely want to reduce the chord size for lower drag; Ferrari have struggled (since 2019 imho) with getting the front balanced with the rear and so are likely using this to aid the FW for better balance.

I also think this car is sensibly similar to the RB in many ways while maintaining the things that were good about the prior Ferraris - triangular airbox for efficiency, suspension that rode curbs/bumps better than others (but with small updates for better platform control), boundary layer management etc - so this imo is good: they've learnt lessons and are going with what has proven to work while not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's not fall of things we haven't seen before and this may speak to what was rumoured: i.e. they will try to establish the baseline before bringing developments. This seems sensible. Ultimately the big differentiator will be the floor anyway and we just don't know what they've done there.

zioture
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Ferrari SF-24: a breakthrough or a disappointment? Technical Analysis - F1 Garage 209

LM10
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Cs98 wrote:
13 Feb 2024, 15:12
LM10 wrote:
13 Feb 2024, 15:08
Cs98 wrote:
13 Feb 2024, 15:03

Ferrari is clearly moving away from 100% sidepod cooling. They've added centre-line cooling and slimmed down the sidepod.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGNvHRDWUAA ... ame=medium
Not sure if they’ve actually moved more towards centreline cooling or the reason of the ramps around the engine cover and the cannon outlet are purely for aerodynamic reasons.
I think both. Moving some cooling from the sidepod to the engine cover allows you to sculpt the undercut and waterslide much better whilst simultaneously directing the airflow on the engine cover where you want it at the rear. It's a better compromise overall, I think that picture is pretty illustrative of that as well as the other cars we've seen.
Probably it's a bit of both, yes. To be totally sure we'll have to wait for pictures with the engine cover off.

Vinlarr89
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Anyone got any view on the changes to the wings? Front wing looks very different, rear wing so far the same?

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Vanja #66
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Few details already noted in this thread, and some that haven't been discussed.

Image

Starting from the front is the right way to start. The nose is of the same concept, but quite more blunt and wider. Hard to say if wide or thin is the right way, since teams seem to be going vack and forth with this, so it can't really be anything crucial - it is what it is and is designed to work with the rest of the car. We should remember Ferrari maxxed out nose width continuously since 2012, featuring thumb nose from 16-21, maybe they have a preference in flow conditioning...

The slot between center section of the 1st and 2nd flap makes me curious, in some angles it seems bigfer but it could ve just lighting. Pronounced brackets suggest a substantial change in load bearing distribution between two elements. FW trailing edge is noticably lower than last year and features less outwash-forced flow. It's almost back to 2022 design, but still a lower trailing edge. One of the biggest issues with SF-23 throughout the year was front aero load and poor balance, even after Japan floor update it wasn't perfect. It's not like RB19 after all and the team will hope this issue was solved. As we can see, VGs are gone. I wasn't a fan of 23 wing at any point, it was clearly draggy and lacked substantial planform surface area and those VGs just gave a horrible "last-minute-fix" impression which could have been true in the end...

Following up, front suspension obviously, this is pretty much the same as AMR24 philosophy, aligned with the trend set by RB18, with the exception here being pushrod element. It looks neatly packed, there is also a shround around chassis opening to minimise the interference loses. Arms are more inclined among themselves, can't say if there is more anti dive now, it was already there the last two years, otherwise the car would have managed to scrape the high-places front wing on braking. Steering rod is now used as a slat ahead of lower front arm, just like RB is doing.

Mirror shrouds are gone, just like top Halo winglet and Viking horns on airbox. Flow conditiong out in favour of drag reduction. Keeping the triangular airbox is keeping their packaging advantage to keep the radiators inside the sides which need to be wide for external aero in any case.

New sides feature a similar outside contour as Barcelona spec update, noted in blue line. Finally on this angle, the rear wing is a completely new design, seems to follow Spa 23 philosophy but has a bigger main plane camber and angle.

Image

Here the most impoetant feature is continuation of floor design, a clear evolution of successful Japan-23 spec floor compared to the new design. Inlet seems to be maxxed out fully inboard and outboard, for better or worse. Side view also shows great similarity between two specs.

Image

Couple of things from side view, the lower rear arms are attached again to a chassis appendage, but it does seem less extreme than last year.

Now the sidepod inlets are clearly new, much anticipated sidepod redesign by the team and there is clear increase in height already. Both top and bottom lips are now higher, with lower having a lot of room to go further up over the year. SIS tube is moved to the floor, as it was announced months ago, ooening up room for a significant undercur increase. Clearly, as first pointed out by yours trully and repeated the whole year, SIS tube bulge had an outwashing role on the SF23 Evo, same as what RB was doing when they increased the undercut from RB18 to 19. Having this out the way now is a significant drag reduction in that area.

The cannon outlet, or engine cover shelf, is now fully integrated. In hindisght, SF23 Evo likely featured a soultion which was the only applicable given the initial SF23 cooling concept which was completely different obviously. In spite of some missuse of the term, this is not Ferrari switching to centerline cooling, that would require a bigger airbox and a radiator on top of the PU. This outlet design is simply used to align with the need to remove the louvres from sidepods to maximise their effectivness now that the air going over the top ends up feeding the beam wing. Having the air from the radiators in that zone would mean introducing low energy, dirty air where you need it as clean as possible. In my view, it could also play a role in increasing DRS effectivness, by reducing the suction under the rear wing and thus inside the engine cover to reduce internal drag slightly.

Finally on side view, a small but important improvement of DRS pylon design, now there is no 90 degree angle joint which is most likely generating a big local stagnation area. Also, potentially more important change, the length of attachment point to the wing is a lot shorter now, potentially allowing bigger rear wing flexing on straights to reduce drag.

Image

A couple of interesting comparisson points in the rear, first of all its very strange there seems to be no change on brake ducts (front ducts are also the same as 23), but they did their job well last year. Pull rod chasis attachment point is moved a lot to the back, clearly for aerodynamic reasons. It's a lot less obstructive path now, while keep their rear-end driveability requirements in check.

Rear view is clearly much different and also shows how the 3 cooling outlets now form one big cannon outlet. The beam wing is obviously very novel in this itteration, an evolution of design introduced in Silverstone 23. Also looks to be like a medium downforce solution.

Image

Rear 3/4 view offers a look at the rear of the nose, quite wide and flat. The undercut is massive, at least as big as AMR24 right now. Could be even bigger, who knows what's in the update pipeline. It was also already noted how big the diffuser volume is, but it's very hard to compare this between two seasons.

Image

Finally, just an illustration of what might be going on with Halo winglets and S duct now, they are definitely aligned with cooling louvres and they are likely increasing the airflow over those to improve cooling in adverse conditions, while also helping with flow attachement and containing Halo losses. Same as last year, but different :mrgreen:

Overall, SF-24 is a completely different car from launch spec SF-23, now fully aligned with the prevailing bodywork philosophy of the grid. Ferrari did keep their advantage with small airbox design and I believe it was the right choice for them. They can clearly improve sidepod inlets and undercut, but main rivals can't reduce their airbox size and generate a decent pressure recovery on the back surface of the airbox. As always, floor remains an unknown, but late-season results and positive driver feedback in 23 must have given the team a much needed boost.
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scuderiabrandon
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Vanja #66 wrote:
14 Feb 2024, 01:15
Few details already noted in this thread, and some that haven't been discussed.

https://i.ibb.co/DMtjhRZ/1-GGO0ite-WMAAe-IX1.jpg

Starting from the front is the right way to start. The nose is of the same concept, but quite more blunt and wider. Hard to say if wide or thin is the right way, since teams seem to be going vack and forth with this, so it can't really be anything crucial - it is what it is and is designed to work with the rest of the car. We should remember Ferrari maxxed out nose width continuously since 2012, featuring thumb nose from 16-21, maybe they have a preference in flow conditioning...

The slot between center section of the 1st and 2nd flap makes me curious, in some angles it seems bigfer but it could ve just lighting. Pronounced brackets suggest a substantial change in load bearing distribution between two elements. FW trailing edge is noticably lower than last year and features less outwash-forced flow. It's almost back to 2022 design, but still a lower trailing edge. One of the biggest issues with SF-23 throughout the year was front aero load and poor balance, even after Japan floor update it wasn't perfect. It's not like RB19 after all and the team will hope this issue was solved. As we can see, VGs are gone. I wasn't a fan of 23 wing at any point, it was clearly draggy and lacked substantial planform surface area and those VGs just gave a horrible "last-minute-fix" impression which could have been true in the end...

Following up, front suspension obviously, this is pretty much the same as AMR24 philosophy, aligned with the trend set by RB18, with the exception here being pushrod element. It looks neatly packed, there is also a shround around chassis opening to minimise the interference loses. Arms are more inclined among themselves, can't say if there is more anti dive now, it was already there the last two years, otherwise the car would have managed to scrape the high-places front wing on braking. Steering rod is now used as a slat ahead of lower front arm, just like RB is doing.

Mirror shrouds are gone, just like top Halo winglet and Viking horns on airbox. Flow conditiong out in favour of drag reduction. Keeping the triangular airbox is keeping their packaging advantage to keep the radiators inside the sides which need to be wide for external aero in any case.

New sides feature a similar outside contour as Barcelona spec update, noted in blue line. Finally on this angle, the rear wing is a completely new design, seems to follow Spa 23 philosophy but has a bigger main plane camber and angle.

https://i.ibb.co/hKbbDpf/2-GGN1-K83-W4-AAR8o-I.jpg

Here the most impoetant feature is continuation of floor design, a clear evolution of successful Japan-23 spec floor compared to the new design. Inlet seems to be maxxed out fully inboard and outboard, for better or worse. Side view also shows great similarity between two specs.

https://i.ibb.co/61ggd2c/3-GGOD5-r-Xc-AAv8u-W.jpg

Couple of things from side view, the lower rear arms are attached again to a chassis appendage, but it does seem less extreme than last year.

Now the sidepod inlets are clearly new, much anticipated sidepod redesign by the team and there is clear increase in height already. Both top and bottom lips are now higher, with lower having a lot of room to go further up over the year. SIS tube is moved to the floor, as it was announced months ago, ooening up room for a significant undercur increase. Clearly, as first pointed out by yours trully and repeated the whole year, SIS tube bulge had an outwashing role on the SF23 Evo, same as what RB was doing when they increased the undercut from RB18 to 19. Having this out the way now is a significant drag reduction in that area.

The cannon outlet, or engine cover shelf, is now fully integrated. In hindisght, SF23 Evo likely featured a soultion which was the only applicable given the initial SF23 cooling concept which was completely different obviously. In spite of some missuse of the term, this is not Ferrari switching to centerline cooling, that would require a bigger airbox and a radiator on top of the PU. This outlet design is simply used to align with the need to remove the louvres from sidepods to maximise their effectivness now that the air going over the top ends up feeding the beam wing. Having the air from the radiators in that zone would mean introducing low energy, dirty air where you need it as clean as possible. In my view, it could also play a role in increasing DRS effectivness, by reducing the suction under the rear wing and thus inside the engine cover to reduce internal drag slightly.

Finally on side view, a small but important improvement of DRS pylon design, now there is no 90 degree angle joint which is most likely generating a big local stagnation area. Also, potentially more important change, the length of attachment point to the wing is a lot shorter now, potentially allowing bigger rear wing flexing on straights to reduce drag.

https://i.ibb.co/WnhSQr7/4-GGOm-I92-X0-AAxkf1.jpg

A couple of interesting comparisson points in the rear, first of all its very strange there seems to be no change on brake ducts (front ducts are also the same as 23), but they did their job well last year. Pull rod chasis attachment point is moved a lot to the back, clearly for aerodynamic reasons. It's a lot less obstructive path now, while keep their rear-end driveability requirements in check.

Rear view is clearly much different and also shows how the 3 cooling outlets now form one big cannon outlet. The beam wing is obviously very novel in this itteration, an evolution of design introduced in Silverstone 23. Also looks to be like a medium downforce solution.

https://i.ibb.co/jzr9B3s/5-o0p2k3ywvdic1.jpg

Rear 3/4 view offers a look at the rear of the nose, quite wide and flat. The undercut is massive, at least as big as AMR24 right now. Could be even bigger, who knows what's in the update pipeline. It was also already noted how big the diffuser volume is, but it's very hard to compare this between two seasons.

https://i.ibb.co/Dkmw41r/6-GGNrwtf-Xw-AIDZWS.jpg

Finally, just an illustration of what might be going on with Halo winglets and S duct now, they are definitely aligned with cooling louvres and they are likely increasing the airflow over those to improve cooling in adverse conditions, while also helping with flow attachement and containing Halo losses. Same as last year, but different :mrgreen:

Overall, SF-24 is a completely different car from launch spec SF-23, now fully aligned with the prevailing bodywork philosophy of the grid. Ferrari did keep their advantage with small airbox design and I believe it was the right choice for them. They can clearly improve sidepod inlets and undercut, but main rivals can't reduce their airbox size and generate a decent pressure recovery on the back surface of the airbox. As always, floor remains an unknown, but late-season results and positive driver feedback in 23 must have given the team a much needed boost.
Your input and analysis is always appreciated Vanja, thank you!

LM10
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Vanja #66 wrote:
14 Feb 2024, 01:15
The cannon outlet, or engine cover shelf, is now fully integrated. In hindisght, SF23 Evo likely featured a soultion which was the only applicable given the initial SF23 cooling concept which was completely different obviously. In spite of some missuse of the term, this is not Ferrari switching to centerline cooling, that would require a bigger airbox and a radiator on top of the PU. This outlet design is simply used to align with the need to remove the louvres from sidepods to maximise their effectivness now that the air going over the top ends up feeding the beam wing. Having the air from the radiators in that zone would mean introducing low energy, dirty air where you need it as clean as possible. In my view, it could also play a role in increasing DRS effectivness, by reducing the suction under the rear wing and thus inside the engine cover to reduce internal drag slightly.
Already had this feeling, but wasn’t sure about it, so thank you for this confirmation and your overall much appreciated and interesting analysis - as always - Vanja. =D>

FDD
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Andi76 wrote:
13 Feb 2024, 22:14
I think one thing has to be honored - Ferrari has actually taken a more unique path than most teams so far, because the car is more different from the Red Bull than most of the others. Personally, I'm actually very enthusiastic about this car at the moment, because I think they're doing a lot right here, at least in terms of the approach. Evolution rather than revolution has always been the path to success in F1 when there were no completely new regulations. And that's exactly what Ferrari has done here. They seem (I say seem deliberately!) to have moved the driver position a little further back, which would be an adequate way to improve front-wheel-wake management. If this is the case, it makes me feel positive, because this is a signature that seems just as familiar to me as the Evolution instead of Revolution approach. Keeping the centerline as narrow as possible so that the rear wing gets better airflow has been a good idea in my opinion since the introduction in 2022. The rear wing and the beam wing are the parts of the car that produce the most upwash. Used correctly, this can give the opportunity to drive the floor more than with other solutions. Optimizing the airflow around the cockpit is also aimed at getting an even more optimized airflow to the rear wing and beamwing. So something well thought out and precisely coordinated has definitely been done here.

In the renders, it looks as if Ferrari will retain the hybrid solution of the sidepods and continue to rely on some inwash, which potentially promises more downforce. I'm not disappointed at all, but rather very positively surprised and this car gives me hope. They seem to have kept the good things (instead of copying most of the Red Bull stuff like many others) and combined this with solutions that are known to be good and efficient and (hopefully) improved and "evolved" in the right areas. The F1-75 clearly proved that the basic technology and concept was very good until the TD039 in 2022. In view of this, it seems to me to be a very good solution to adopt the good areas, technologies and concepts of this and the 2023 car, adequately replace the bad ones and eliminate the weak points. And that is generally a much better way to achieve success than simply throwing everything overboard and constantly starting again, or clumsily copying the solutions of the most successful team. That's why I'm very optimistic about this car. And also because the way and manner in which, where and how it was done seems very familiar to me, just like certain concepts and solutions of the F1-75 did at the beginning of the season...

Finally, I would like to say one more thing to those who say or write (media) "Ferrari now also uses the Red Bull intake on the sidepods" - this is not a Red Bull intake. Ferrari actually invented this "underbite" intake in 2017 and used it in 2017 and 2018. Red Bull actually copied it in 2022. So if Red Bull has been running a Ferrari intake since 2022, Ferrari is now using its own invention again!
Yes, most of the people forgot SF70H and F92A with the "double floor" practically huge undercut.
Last edited by FDD on 14 Feb 2024, 01:53, edited 1 time in total.

Xyz22
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Image

jambuka
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Is the SF-24 filming day going to be streamed anywhere ?

FDD
FDD
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Vanja #66 wrote:
14 Feb 2024, 01:15

Rear view is clearly much different and also shows how the 3 cooling outlets now form one big cannon outlet. The beam wing is obviously very novel in this itteration, an evolution of design introduced in Silverstone 23. Also looks to be like a medium downforce solution.
Cardile confirmed medium DF on the presented car:

"Compared to the Red Bull you suffered at high speeds with the DRS open: have you analyzed this aspect of the performance?
“Yes, I mean that part of the development of this car was designed to improve the efficiency of the rear wing. The machine was presented with a new medium load wing, but I can confirm that we are renewing the entire range we have. We also focus our attention on this specific aerodynamic aspect."

PS Awesome analysis, as usual, Thank You

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Vanja #66
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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FDD wrote:
14 Feb 2024, 11:09
Cardile confirmed medium DF on the presented car:

"Compared to the Red Bull you suffered at high speeds with the DRS open: have you analyzed this aspect of the performance?
“Yes, I mean that part of the development of this car was designed to improve the efficiency of the rear wing. The machine was presented with a new medium load wing, but I can confirm that we are renewing the entire range we have. We also focus our attention on this specific aerodynamic aspect."

PS Awesome analysis, as usual, Thank You
I'd take more focus from the DRS comments, although this too is clear. Last year Ferrari didn't do much with RWs, but they did introduce Spa 23 wing which showed this direction and it did work really well, so it makes sense to let go of the 2022 RW range completely and introduce new solutions. RB is spending lot less time choosing the right RW level, having only 3 designs + Monza/Vegas special cutout flap.
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FDD
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Vanja #66 wrote:
14 Feb 2024, 11:15
FDD wrote:
14 Feb 2024, 11:09
Cardile confirmed medium DF on the presented car:

"Compared to the Red Bull you suffered at high speeds with the DRS open: have you analyzed this aspect of the performance?
“Yes, I mean that part of the development of this car was designed to improve the efficiency of the rear wing. The machine was presented with a new medium load wing, but I can confirm that we are renewing the entire range we have. We also focus our attention on this specific aerodynamic aspect."

PS Awesome analysis, as usual, Thank You
I'd take more focus from the DRS comments, although this too is clear. Last year Ferrari didn't do much with RWs, but they did introduce Spa 23 wing which showed this direction and it did work really well, so it makes sense to let go of the 2022 RW range completely and introduce new solutions. RB is spending lot less time choosing the right RW level, having only 3 designs + Monza/Vegas special cutout flap.
What do You think about further elaboration/details on the floor pavement, rear back mirrors and airbox ("Viking horns"), can we expect additional parts/details?

FDD
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Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Cardile:
“ The car in the wind tunnel is already an evolution compared to the one presented . We will then decide when it will be best to bring the first updates to the track. The first step will be to see where we are compared to our competitors .”

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Vanja #66
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FDD wrote:
14 Feb 2024, 11:23
What do You think about further elaboration/details on the floor pavement, rear back mirrors and airbox ("Viking horns"), can we expect additional parts/details?
The only thing I really didn't expect was the exclusion of Viking horns and if they didn't use them for launch I don't think they will get them back. Mirror shrouds weren't there in 22 so I didn't see them as significantly added benefit on SF-23, same as top side Halo winglet.

The entire floor will need to have at least 3 major updates after this spec to keep up with the competition, floor-edge and other minor updates will likely be more frequent. Sidepods will likely have at least one major overhaul (tightening up) this year. The whole car will need to be almost directly transferred to 2025, so I don't expect any Top5 team will abandon 24 car development mid-season, it will be an all-out development battle until the last 3-4 races.
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