Mercedes W15

[AmateurDriver]

Toto just said in an interview they chose the wrong cooling package

I mean…they were testing there for 3 whole days plus another 3 practice sessions! They had plenty of data to select the best cooling option! So I wouldn’t say this is true…more like an excuse!

They've historically specified, designed and run cooling configuration with the projected track position they'd notionally encounter.
If expecting to run at the front of field this has forged a path, throughout dominant years, of team analysis.
Looks like they were predicting to qualify in front two rows of grid, with cooling appropriate for that scenario but with higher demand through initial phase of race on both cars making that seem wide of the mark.

Come on... If that was the case, if they had an issue in quali so as to start close to bottom line they would never recover in the race...

[Farnborough]

I mean…they were testing there for 3 whole days plus another 3 practice sessions! They had plenty of data to select the best cooling option! So I wouldn’t say this is true…more like an excuse!

They've historically specified, designed and run cooling configuration with the projected track position they'd notionally encounter.
If expecting to run at the front of field this has forged a path, throughout dominant years, of team analysis.
Looks like they were predicting to qualify in front two rows of grid, with cooling appropriate for that scenario but with higher demand through initial phase of race on both cars making that seem wide of the mark.

Come on... If that was the case, if they had an issue in quali so as to start close to bottom line they would never recover in the race...

They've always done this during this era of engine rules, all the teams want to run absolutely minimal cooling for every track they go to throughout the year.
If their predicted/expected scenario doesn't play out there's consequences.

[AMG.Tzan]

Toto just said in an interview they chose the wrong cooling package

I mean…they were testing there for 3 whole days plus another 3 practice sessions! They had plenty of data to select the best cooling option! So I wouldn’t say this is true…more like an excuse!

They've historically specified, designed and run cooling configuration with the projected track position they'd notionally encounter.
If expecting to run at the front of field this has forged a path, throughout dominant years, of team analysis.
Looks like they were predicting to qualify in front two rows of grid, with cooling appropriate for that scenario but with higher demand through initial phase of race on both cars making that seem wide of the mark.

I don’t know! Sure they may have used this method to find the best solution but still Russell started experiencing problems after passing Leclerc he said! Yet after passing Leclerc he was basically in free air since Max was over 2 seconds ahead…

Apart from that their top speed again is nowhere! They’ve been running the car lower than everyone which is supposed to reduce drag! (I remember people saying back in 22-23 that because they couldn’t run low they got a lot of drag). So was it the rear wing being a bit too big then?

It surprises me that they didn’t bring a new rear wing! After all top speed and a better DRS effect were supposed to be some of the priorities of the W15 per James Allison…

[Farnborough]

They really plan like this, plus likehood of safety car at each circuit, GR was at high duress for some time before passing CL and then in defense from faster race pace cars. It wasn't an easy run and effectively out qualifying his true race pace in all reality.
If they were marginal in cooling, then following any other car will raise their temps out of control with no choice but to back the engine down.
Car looks to have potential, but worrying display of old traits still linger, the need to constantly chase absolute on the floor stance one of them.
The two fastest chassis /competitors just don't do this, running in a more malleable window in regard of being able to utilise suspension compliance to primarily bring a level of consistency not enacted here.

[f1jcw]

Why is the PU overheating now that their cooling isn't compromised by zeropods?

Toto just said in an interview they chose the wrong cooling package

I mean…they were testing there for 3 whole days plus another 3 practice sessions! They had plenty of data to select the best cooling option! So I wouldn’t say this is true…more like an excuse!

I 100% agree with you, if what you say is true, it massive unforgivable incompetence.

[stonehenge]

Why is the PU overheating now that their cooling isn't compromised by zeropods?

Like Hungarian GP '23, they sacrificed cooling for performance and got caught out.

Some care needs to be taken with regards to the comments about the performance loss due to the issue since it's really not a 1:1 correlation.

Increasing the cooling openings on the car makes it draggier and compromises some downforce due to flow being "consumed" by the internal flows, rather than being sent down the side of the car. So you can't just add back the engine performance and say that's where you "would have been".

That's true, but insufficient cooling would have detrimental effects on a whole bunch of things impacting performance. Lower engine performance, more lift and coast, therefore a lower fuel burn and more weight on the car, detrimental to drivers' confidence and ability to extract performance, etc. I don't find it hard to believe that it cost them a significant amount of time, perhaps even 5-6 tenths like Toto said. Which is why it is INSANE that they would make such a mistake, especially at a track that they just did 3 days of testing on. Teams generally have a good handling on how much cooling they will need. The only exception is Mexico, but that's because the air is so much thinner that everyone is riding on the edge.

[Farnborough]

Their combined "pace" I thought judged by JA after testing etc was that they were second to RB for their planning .... which must be based upon this data. That's reasonable stance to proceed with, but clearly not matched by what they found against Ferrari McL etc.
Just fundamental to a race weekend decision scenario, with clear consequences for any error flowing from that.
Then it becomes survival, conservation of PU etc to not then compromise the coming races and ultimately need to change PU etc. Not as good a performance as they'd want, with no other sensible way out.

This is one of the fascinating parts of the sport, one set of team minds against the others, chasing down these detail to bring about those race performances, but brutal in appearance as so public a display.

I'm sure that this will facilitate different approach details for next race, more understanding of chassis capabilities in this iteration with some of the best learning coming from their mistakes. Not squandering this experience is valuable asset.

[Watto]

Their combined "pace" I thought judged by JA after testing etc was that they were second to RB for their planning .... which must be based upon this data. That's reasonable stance to proceed with, but clearly not matched by what they found against Ferrari McL etc.
Just fundamental to a race weekend decision scenario, with clear consequences for any error flowing from that.
Then it becomes survival, conservation of PU etc to not then compromise the coming races and ultimately need to change PU etc. Not as good a performance as they'd want, with no other sensible way out.

This is one of the fascinating parts of the sport, one set of team minds against the others, chasing down these detail to bring about those race performances, but brutal in appearance as so public a display.

I'm sure that this will facilitate different approach details for next race, more understanding of chassis capabilities in this iteration with some of the best learning coming from their mistakes. Not squandering this experience is valuable asset.

I do think they’ll learn from it and think they finally have the right platform to develop off, but would question if this is a mistake they’d make when they were at their best - especially when they were targeting a race setup.

Or are there elements of the mistakes that lead them down the zeropod path still there?

[toraabe]

I mean…they were testing there for 3 whole days plus another 3 practice sessions! They had plenty of data to select the best cooling option! So I wouldn’t say this is true…more like an excuse!

They've historically specified, designed and run cooling configuration with the projected track position they'd notionally encounter.
If expecting to run at the front of field this has forged a path, throughout dominant years, of team analysis.
Looks like they were predicting to qualify in front two rows of grid, with cooling appropriate for that scenario but with higher demand through initial phase of race on both cars making that seem wide of the mark.

I don’t know! Sure they may have used this method to find the best solution but still Russell started experiencing problems after passing Leclerc he said! Yet after passing Leclerc he was basically in free air since Max was over 2 seconds ahead…

Apart from that their top speed again is nowhere! They’ve been running the car lower than everyone which is supposed to reduce drag! (I remember people saying back in 22-23 that because they couldn’t run low they got a lot of drag). So was it the rear wing being a bit too big then?

It surprises me that they didn’t bring a new rear wing! After all top speed and a better DRS effect were supposed to be some of the priorities of the W15 per James Allison…

Their top speed was not very far off. Probably due to maintaining temperature. At least they have got the gear ratio right for this year. All teams are reving around 10700 at 300 km/h. Mercedes a bit longer and Alpine has a shorter 8th gear.

[Formula 1 fan]

I watched qualifying, it seemed to me that Mercedes did not improve the efficiency of the car on the track at all considering the speeds in qualifying.

[Venturiation]

[bigpat]

Why is the PU overheating now that their cooling isn't compromised by zeropods?

Toto just said in an interview they chose the wrong cooling package

I mean…they were testing there for 3 whole days plus another 3 practice sessions! They had plenty of data to select the best cooling option! So I wouldn’t say this is true…more like an excuse!

Remember that testing is conducted with cars spread out on track, and lower engine modes, so they dont suffer from the heated air when following another car.

The teams trim the cooling capacity by altering the outlet size of the exit behind the radiator. More flow through the car adds drag, so they want to minimize the loss in drag. Building cars with bigger coolers and ducts than necessary adds weight, and size.

[CHT]

Toto just said in an interview they chose the wrong cooling package

I mean…they were testing there for 3 whole days plus another 3 practice sessions! They had plenty of data to select the best cooling option! So I wouldn’t say this is true…more like an excuse!

Remember that testing is conducted with cars spread out on track, and lower engine modes, so they dont suffer from the heated air when following another car.

The teams trim the cooling capacity by altering the outlet size of the exit behind the radiator. More flow through the car adds drag, so they want to minimize the loss in drag. Building cars with bigger coolers and ducts than necessary adds weight, and size.

Insufficient cooling or overheating are both factually correct.

But I would think it's more related to overheating because race day temp was cooler than on test days and we can expect that drivers don't usually push the car beyond the reasonable limit as they do during racing.

Perhaps both Merc drivers are being pushed beyond their test limits and the engine got heated up, especially during their early stint with higher fuel load, and they have to back off earlier in the race.

And yes, Toto is right to say they have chosen the wrong cooling package, or they can say they have under estimated how hard they need to drive to keep up.

[Sevach]

[Matt2725]

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Advantage locked in until Thursday.