2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Hammerfist]

Just so I'm up to date on this thread. Anything negative is true, and anything potentially positive is PR spin and only being said to attract drivers and sponsors?

I think that's about right. Shame the level of discourse here is now on par with Reddit.

As it is, we'll see where they are next week I would suggest.

We are all guilty of making conclusions too early. We need a few more races to see where they are really at. Even in a dominant year as 2019 they were relatively poor in Bahrain, In 21' they were lucky to win against Max, In 22' and 23' they were awful as well. So we'll just have to wait and see.

[Luscion]

Apparently Lewis was also fixing/recovering? his battery for 10 laps and was derating down the straight and had brake temp issues as well

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hami ... /10582702/

[PlatinumZealot]

He wants to make the team as attractive as possible for new drivers and sponsors before Hamilton leaves.

He should still start by resigning and allowing a fresh face with new energy and better attitude to take over. That's just how these things go in sports, an era passed and it's time to move on. Arguably, Toto is simply too proud and stubborn to accept he's part of the problem for a while now.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Formula 1 has shown that successful team principals tend to have that success recurring.
Frank Williams, Ross Brawn, Ron Dennis, Christian Horner, Colin Chapman... etc. A fresh face on a team principal? And great attitudes? haha not sure about that. I see no reason for Toto to resign any time soon.

[PlatinumZealot]

Mercedes miss aldo costa.. the head of aero for redbull was porched from merc in 2018

Aldo was a chassis guy and system integrator. Yes he is missed.. but Mercs problem has been weak aero direction. John Owen is still in the ranks.. he hasn't left. He's a somewhat mythical figure though. Doesn't show his face to he cameras.

[Vanja #66]

I wholeheartedly disagree. Formula 1 has shown that successful team principals tend to have that success recurring.
Frank Williams, Ross Brawn, Ron Dennis, Christian Horner, Colin Chapman... etc. A fresh face on a team principal? And great attitudes? haha not sure about that. I see no reason for Toto to resign any time soon.

And how exactly did Toto contribute to success of the team to compare him to Williams, Brawn, Horner, Chapman etc?

[Luscion]

So Merc did test their cooling with race simulations at higher temps during testing and was a mystery to them why the PU was overheating until the end of the race. https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ersteuern/

Why the temperatures suddenly rose into the red zone remained a mystery until the end of the race. During testing, the Mercedes had coped with race simulations at much higher outside temperatures without complaint. "We probably miscalculated the cooling settings," admitted chief engineer Andrew Shovlin.

Engine customer Williams encountered the same problem. While Williams had completely closed its cowling in the face of outside temperatures of 17 degrees, Mercedes left four cooling fins open in the engine cover. It couldn't have been the engine itself. McLaren and Aston Martin got through the distance without any problems.

The engine dilemma led to further problems. The lift and coast caused the temperature of the front tires to drop. This caused understeer at the entrance to the corners. The drivers had to turn the car at the apex with a lot of throttle input, which then affected the rear tires again. This threw the balance completely out of kilter. "Under the circumstances, fifth and seventh place were probably the best we could achieve," commented Shovlin.

[Unc1eM0nty]

James Allison was particularly smug after testing, suggesting they might be ahead of Ferrari in race pace and didn't even acknowledge McLaren as a possible threat.

I think that's a bit much, at the very end of the interview and reluctantlywhen pushed he gave th answer.

He did caveat this by saying it would depend on how much time each team found in the next 8 days (between test and race).

[PlatinumZealot]

I wholeheartedly disagree. Formula 1 has shown that successful team principals tend to have that success recurring.
Frank Williams, Ross Brawn, Ron Dennis, Christian Horner, Colin Chapman... etc. A fresh face on a team principal? And great attitudes? haha not sure about that. I see no reason for Toto to resign any time soon.

And how exactly did Toto contribute to success of the team to compare him to Williams, Brawn, Horner, Chapman etc?

You can single out Horner. The rest are founders and engineers whose contributions aremore obivous. Wolff did just as much if not more than Horner does. No need to diminish his contributions which mainly lie in how he manages people, resources and sets the culture.

He managed to maintain the top spot for years after Brawn, so he has proven his team management skills. It's the technical side that's ageing a bit, it is how Wolff now recovers that but finishes in '22 and '23 were by no means mediocre. Third and Runner up. The team isn't exactly languishing. Culture wise, things are stable too. And because of that, I do believe he can still poach top technical names to turn things around.

[organic]

Apparently Lewis was also fixing/recovering? his battery for 10 laps and was derating down the straight and had brake temp issues as well

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hami ... /10582702/

That was just because Lewis had drained his battery previously and needed to recharge it.

[Vanja #66]

You can single out Horner. The rest are founders and engineers whose contributions aremore obivous. Wolff did just as much if not more than Horner does. No need to diminish his contributions which mainly lie in how he manages people, resources and sets the culture.

Brawn did all the work to set the team up after he took over from Honda. He brought Schumi, Costa and a few others from the Red Baron era. When Mercedes did an illegal tyre test in 2013, Toto left Brawn to publicly defend the team on his own, I imagine he didn't want to be the face of the team if they were found guilty. Brawn's deep knowledge of rules, sport and precedents, as well as his abundant eloquence saved Mercedes' face that day. For his great work, he was given the boot - some culture that was!

On the other hand, it was Lauda who worked with Ecclestone to bring Hamilton to Mercedes. Toto was a businessman who bought his place in the team. Nobody can deny he had a great business nous to get inside both Williams and Mercedes at that time, but that was the extent of his prowess. PU was a beast for 8 straight years and allowed the team to make a car with loads of downforce without a care in the world for drag. Good suspension innovations were a nice addition to supplement their aero platform. Toto was a smart investor who knew not to get in the way of experts doing their stuff, I'll give him that.

[stonehenge]

Not trying to suggest I think it's very likely, but Max going to Mercedes to replace Hamilton going to Ferrari would genuinely be one of the craziest things imaginable. I don't know if my brain would survive it happening, I think it would explode.

[Hammerfist]

Not trying to suggest I think it's very likely, but Max going to Mercedes to replace Hamilton going to Ferrari would genuinely be one of the craziest things imaginable. I don't know if my brain would survive it happening, I think it would explode.

I would love to see it personally. Max is widely regarded as the best driver by a mile. I would be so intrigued with him at Merc, an environment that strives to treat both drivers equally. So if he goes to merc and continues his teammate domination at the same level he has at Rbr you have to start talking about him as possibly the goat.

[mkay]

Not trying to suggest I think it's very likely, but Max going to Mercedes to replace Hamilton going to Ferrari would genuinely be one of the craziest things imaginable. I don't know if my brain would survive it happening, I think it would explode.

That would mean giving up on the 2025 WDC which I don't foresee happening. It would create the mother of all silly seasons for 2025.

Unless... he'd sign for 2026 onwards, which might not be such a bad gamble, assuming Mercedes HPP is ahead of RBPT on the 2026 PU design.

[DGP123]

Zero chance Max leaves RB before 26’

[Watto]

Not trying to suggest I think it's very likely, but Max going to Mercedes to replace Hamilton going to Ferrari would genuinely be one of the craziest things imaginable. I don't know if my brain would survive it happening, I think it would explode.

I would love to see it personally. Max is widely regarded as the best driver by a mile. I would be so intrigued with him at Merc, an environment that strives to treat both drivers equally. So if he goes to merc and continues his teammate domination at the same level he has at Rbr you have to start talking about him as possibly the goat.

Probably one of the reasons I don't know I see him going to Merc; I don't think its as one sided as some think but the can and team are built around Max, I think he would handle George enough esp if a car that suited him. It would have been very interesting to see Lewis Vs Max in the same car when Lewis was at the top of his a game and Max right no - probably back Lewis just because he has the runs on the board a little longer but woould be an interesting battle.

Not trying to suggest I think it's very likely, but Max going to Mercedes to replace Hamilton going to Ferrari would genuinely be one of the craziest things imaginable. I don't know if my brain would survive it happening, I think it would explode.

That would mean giving up on the 2025 WDC which I don't foresee happening. It would create the mother of all silly seasons for 2025.

Unless... he'd sign for 2026 onwards, which might not be such a bad gamble, assuming Mercedes HPP is ahead of RBPT on the 2026 PU design.

Yep. I guess unless towards the end of the season Mercedes show they've made up a lot of ground and can challange RBR right now though I doubt it in 2025 for that reason, 2026 on the other had if RBPT doesn't go as planned.

You can single out Horner. The rest are founders and engineers whose contributions aremore obivous. Wolff did just as much if not more than Horner does. No need to diminish his contributions which mainly lie in how he manages people, resources and sets the culture.

Brawn did all the work to set the team up after he took over from Honda. He brought Schumi, Costa and a few others from the Red Baron era. When Mercedes did an illegal tyre test in 2013, Toto left Brawn to publicly defend the team on his own, I imagine he didn't want to be the face of the team if they were found guilty. Brawn's deep knowledge of rules, sport and precedents, as well as his abundant eloquence saved Mercedes' face that day. For his great work, he was given the boot - some culture that was!

On the other hand, it was Lauda who worked with Ecclestone to bring Hamilton to Mercedes. Toto was a businessman who bought his place in the team. Nobody can deny he had a great business nous to get inside both Williams and Mercedes at that time, but that was the extent of his prowess. PU was a beast for 8 straight years and allowed the team to make a car with loads of downforce without a care in the world for drag. Good suspension innovations were a nice addition to supplement their aero platform. Toto was a smart investor who knew not to get in the way of experts doing their stuff, I'll give him that.

I kinda seen Toto and Christian as being similar in some ways I think both have some political nous. both play a very good PR/media front man that I think is good for their teams overall though as you've pointed out there are some clear differences too.