Christian Horner under Investigation

[dans79]

Either way what Horner is publicly being accused of (extramarital affair), is still generally frowned upon, and some studies have shown younger Americans are less tolerant of it than older ones.

An extramarital affair, whilst distasteful, isn't the issue. It's the accusations of abusing his position of power to sexually harass a subordinate that is the problem.

From what I've seen of the screen shots it looks to have started off as former and morphed into the later. Either one doesn't go down very well here in the states.

[f1jcw]

Either way what Horner is publicly being accused of (extramarital affair), is still generally frowned upon, and some studies have shown younger Americans are less tolerant of it than older ones.

An extramarital affair, whilst distasteful, isn't the issue. It's the accusations of abusing his position of power to sexually harass a subordinate that is the problem.

From what I've seen of the screen shots it looks to have started off as former and morphed into the later. Either one doesn't go down very well here in the states.

From the shots I've seen it doesn't look to me that there was any extramarital affair, would need more and earlier screen shots to confirm.

[TFSA]

That depends on whether a company device or company account was used to send the messages and the policies in place to cover such use. You would expect Red Bull to have a policy that explicitly covers the use of such devices, and in the case of BYOD for the use of personal equipment for company work. At least some of the messages involved are sent from work devices (Horner references attempting to call both of her phones for instance), and many of the problem messages are interspersed within messages obviously related to work. It's not as clearcut as you say.

Not how that works, actually.

There are limitations on using company accounts for that sort of thing. That means you can get nailed for using, say, your company e-mail or company chat service for private messages, since your purposely used a company account for those things.

WhatsApp does not fall under that, even if it's on a work phone, because it's not a service within the control of the company. To give an analogy: If you, for the sake of example, decided to use your work phone to log into your private e-mail account, your employer is NOT entitled to read your private e-mails, just because you logged into your private e-mail account on a company device.

The same goes for WhatsApp in this case. The employer needs to be in control of the associated system for there to be considered exemptions. Red Bull is not in charge of WhatsApp as a service, and as such, the conversations are - for all intends and purposes - still considered private, unless the participants decide to make them public.

I believe that in the wake of that ruling the FIA changed their policies after to ensure team principals had a license to compete.

There's still gonna be requirements of due process, otherwise it can be challenged in court. Which - once again - brings me back to my original point: The FIA does not have the jurisdiction to investigate this properly. No investigation means no punishment. That's why they're not investigating.

Beyond that, let's agree to disagree. You've made your points, and I've made mine.

[Luscion]

Christian Horner’s accuser to be named and footage of Jos Verstappen row emerges, this is supposedly happening this week

https://metro.co.uk/2024/03/04/christia ... -20396531/

[myurr]

Not how that works, actually.

There are limitations on using company accounts for that sort of thing. That means you can get nailed for using, say, your company e-mail or company chat service for private messages, since your purposely used a company account for those things.

WhatsApp does not fall under that, even if it's on a work phone, because it's not a service within the control of the company. To give an analogy: If you, for the sake of example, decided to use your work phone to log into your private e-mail account, your employer is NOT entitled to read your private e-mails, just because you logged into your private e-mail account on a company device.

The same goes for WhatsApp in this case. The employer needs to be in control of the associated system for there to be considered exemptions. Red Bull is not in charge of WhatsApp as a service, and as such, the conversations are - for all intends and purposes - still considered private, unless the participants decide to make them public.

You're overlooking that she took screenshots. Those would be files saved directly to the company device and then copied to the company backup servers (presuming they are running a backup service). They may be missing the context of the wider threads but they would have access to the screenshots that have been shared and be able to verify their authenticity.

I believe that in the wake of that ruling the FIA changed their policies after to ensure team principals had a license to compete.

There's still gonna be requirements of due process, otherwise it can be challenged in court. Which - once again - brings me back to my original point: The FIA does not have the jurisdiction to investigate this properly. No investigation means no punishment. That's why they're not investigating.

Beyond that, let's agree to disagree. You've made your points, and I've made mine.

Again, I disagree with you. They may not have the power to investigate in the manner the police would, but they have comparable powers to a tribunal.

You also stated in another post that no laws have been broken. I would again respectfully disagree. If Horner's messages are genuine then they would be in breach of UK employment law, and I would presume most of Europe has similar laws in the instance the victim is not employed in the UK. The Equality Act 2010 covers sexual harassment. There's also the more recent law change (October 2023) that provides additional protection.

There is a duty to take "reasonable steps" to prevent sexual harassment of your employees in the course of their employment. There's some good information here for what Red Bull should be doing: https://www.lewissilkin.com/en/insights ... een-passed

[f1jcw]

Christian Horner’s accuser to be named and footage of Jos Verstappen row emerges, this is supposedly happening this week

https://metro.co.uk/2024/03/04/christia ... -20396531/

I think most people knew who she was weeks ago, but if they didn't, business F1 putting her on the cover won't have helped.

[bagajohny]

Christian Horner’s accuser to be named and footage of Jos Verstappen row emerges, this is supposedly happening this week

https://metro.co.uk/2024/03/04/christia ... -20396531/

I think most people knew who she was weeks ago, but if they didn't, business F1 putting her on the cover won't have helped.

Yeah I was just expecting the name, not a cover photo. I just hope they have her permission to do it.

[Luscion]

Skysports is reporting Horner met with Max's manager today to talk about the rising tension in the team

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... t-red-bull

[boiler]

Why is Ford so Quick to jump out? It's about 2026 so plenty of time to get there. To the public right now nothing really links Red Rull and Ford.

Generally speaking, over the last 10 years or so companies in the sates have started to distance themselves from anyone or anything that appears to violate social norms.

I called this a few weeks ago, Ford got cold feet and was looking for a way out they have to many quality issues to fix at home. There is no need to write a check that will net them nothing in the long run. Look at how Redbull has treated their engine partners in the past what does Ford get out of this? Take the out and save face while you can instead of getting drug through the mud when the power units start failing.....

[f1jcw]

Why is Ford so Quick to jump out? It's about 2026 so plenty of time to get there. To the public right now nothing really links Red Rull and Ford.

Generally speaking, over the last 10 years or so companies in the sates have started to distance themselves from anyone or anything that appears to violate social norms.

I called this a few weeks ago, Ford got cold feet and was looking for a way out they have to many quality issues to fix at home. There is no need to write a check that will net them nothing in the long run. Look at how Redbull has treated their engine partners in the past what does Ford get out of this? Take the out and save face while you can instead of getting drug through the mud when the power units start failing.....

I'd laugh if you was right, that was hitting trouble and saw this as the perfect opportunity to do it and come out smelling of roses, parading themselves as a virtious organsation.

[Redragon]

Horner said he'd deleted his messages and repeatedly pushed his victim to do the same.

Doesn't mean she did, or indeed that he deleted them all in the end either.

I think what happened was he requested her to delete them, she screen shot them and then deleted them.
So that if he asked she could show that they was deleted.

You don’t need to request. Not sure what type of chat they were using but you can clear and delete any encrypted chat any moment from both sides. So probably she was screenshooting earlier intentionally

[Watto]

Generally speaking, over the last 10 years or so companies in the sates have started to distance themselves from anyone or anything that appears to violate social norms.

I called this a few weeks ago, Ford got cold feet and was looking for a way out they have to many quality issues to fix at home. There is no need to write a check that will net them nothing in the long run. Look at how Redbull has treated their engine partners in the past what does Ford get out of this? Take the out and save face while you can instead of getting drug through the mud when the power units start failing.....

I'd laugh if you was right, that was hitting trouble and saw this as the perfect opportunity to do it and come out smelling of roses, parading themselves as a virtious organsation.

Its one way out it if they did. But RBR did no doubt bad mouth Renault but, I though they protected Honda pretty well not sure i recall a case where Honda were hung out to dry (AM did Alonsos infamous comment)

They did use AT as a guinniea pig for the year or so to workout their biggest issues from their AM venture. Even wanted Honda to stay for the 2026 ruleset when they walked under old management set up RBPT and looked for parners first Porsche then Ford etc.

[Watto]

More anonymous sources

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/263027/r ... rtner.html

Ford would reconsider cooperation

After Christian Horner was accused of inappropriate behaviour - and has since been cleared of it - there seemed to be a crack in the relationship between Ford and Red Bull. The Americans also openly did not respond to the outcome of Red Bull's internal investigation. And so now stories are circulating that Ford are looking internally at whether they can get out of the deal with the Austrians.

GPblog can say with clarity, however, that all these rumours are false. Ford has no intention whatsoever of breaking the deal with Red Bull. Preparations for the '26 season are of course in full swing, and Ford and Red Bull will continue to work on a power unit for the season in which F1 regulations will be completely overhauled.

I'd guess neither the are/aren't reconsidering has a real source at Ford Inside insider is Dutch so probably Jos?
GPBLog could say RBR - who would claim all is hunky dory even if its not

Lesson on the day don't believe everything on the internet I guess. One of them will end up being true

[CHT]

More anonymous sources

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/263027/r ... rtner.html

Ford would reconsider cooperation

After Christian Horner was accused of inappropriate behaviour - and has since been cleared of it - there seemed to be a crack in the relationship between Ford and Red Bull. The Americans also openly did not respond to the outcome of Red Bull's internal investigation. And so now stories are circulating that Ford are looking internally at whether they can get out of the deal with the Austrians.

GPblog can say with clarity, however, that all these rumours are false. Ford has no intention whatsoever of breaking the deal with Red Bull. Preparations for the '26 season are of course in full swing, and Ford and Red Bull will continue to work on a power unit for the season in which F1 regulations will be completely overhauled.

I'd guess neither the are/aren't reconsidering has a real source at Ford Inside insider is Dutch so probably Jos?
GPBLog could say RBR - who would claim all is hunky dory even if its not

Lesson on the day don't believe everything on the internet I guess. One of them will end up being true

Not sure why Jos got himself into this, I am guessing media will start talking about him soon. This is not good for Max for sure.

"The hot-headed father of Red Bull's star driver who is taking on Christian Horner over 'sex texts' scandal: How Jos Verstappen assaulted man at go-kart track, was accused of attacking an ex and arrested for attempted murder after driving at former lover"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... andal.html

[dans79]

If true, I could see this being what started the war.

https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... o-red-bull

According to what was gathered by FormulaPassion.it , an authoritative source familiar with the matter has reconstructed the genesis of the disagreements so bitter that they split the team, with Horner on one side and the Austrians on the other.

In fact, it seems that in 2023 Christian Horner would have presented himself to the Yoovidhya family with an offer from financiers in the British area, with the aim of acquiring - in whole or in part - the Formula 1 team from the company. Thus covering that leading role - 'Wolff-style' - which he has been whispered about in many quarters in recent months.
All this was unaware of the Austrians, who would not have welcomed - to put it mildly - this move by the team principal. From here the clear rift between Horner and Fuschl's headquarters
was born , even before the scandal that emerged in recent weeks.
Naturally the conditional is a must in such a complex and multifaceted matter, but we can confirm that it is a strong indiscretion , which would help to rebuild the relationships that have been so tense in the team for over a year.