2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[mendis]

"Very poor", two years before the season? That sounds ridiculous.

In 2012 only a few people outside Mercedes HPP in Brixworth knew what was going on there in preparation for 2 years later and most of them were in Mercedes F1 Team in Brackley and Mercedes HQ in Stuttgart. Then Hamilton also learned about it and left McLaren.

Mercedes was supplying engines for McLaren in 2012 and untill 2014. Mercedes had a dog of a car in 2012 and the Daimler share holders were calling to stop the F1 program. McLaren had the fastest car, but unreliable. He left McLaren, because he was fed up with Ron's controlling behaviour, McLaren poor racing management on track and seeming difficulty in beating Red Bul. Self admittedly, Mercedes didn't know where they stood with regards to the output of 2014 PU as they didn't have one reliable PU running for them until 2014! Completely different facts.

Same applies to 2026 PUs. Nobody really knows where each other stands with regards to competitive output of the PUs. Only 2026 will show where RBPT stands.

[Watto]

"Very poor", two years before the season? That sounds ridiculous.

In 2012 only a few people outside Mercedes HPP in Brixworth knew what was going on there in preparation for 2 years later and most of them were in Mercedes F1 Team in Brackley and Mercedes HQ in Stuttgart. Then Hamilton also learned about it and left McLaren.

Mercedes was supplying engines for McLaren in 2012 and untill 2014. Mercedes had a dog of a car in 2012 and the Daimler share holders were calling to stop the F1 program. McLaren had the fastest car, but unreliable. He left McLaren, because he was fed up with Ron's controlling behaviour, McLaren poor racing management on track and seeming difficulty in beating Red Bul. Self admittedly, Mercedes didn't know where they stood with regards to the output of 2014 PU as they didn't have one reliable PU running for them until 2014! Completely different facts.

Same applies to 2026 PUs. Nobody really knows where each other stands with regards to competitive output of the PUs. Only 2026 will show where RBPT stands.

They don’t but that they are largely a carry over from the current gen more sustainable fuels minus the MGUH etc.

The current suppliers likely have a pretty detailed knowledge

RBPT have some talented people there but are starting from scratch more never produced an engine before would have more question marks.

But yes until we see them all in 2026 we won’t know for sure

[mendis]

In 2012 only a few people outside Mercedes HPP in Brixworth knew what was going on there in preparation for 2 years later and most of them were in Mercedes F1 Team in Brackley and Mercedes HQ in Stuttgart. Then Hamilton also learned about it and left McLaren.

Mercedes was supplying engines for McLaren in 2012 and untill 2014. Mercedes had a dog of a car in 2012 and the Daimler share holders were calling to stop the F1 program. McLaren had the fastest car, but unreliable. He left McLaren, because he was fed up with Ron's controlling behaviour, McLaren poor racing management on track and seeming difficulty in beating Red Bul. Self admittedly, Mercedes didn't know where they stood with regards to the output of 2014 PU as they didn't have one reliable PU running for them until 2014! Completely different facts.

Same applies to 2026 PUs. Nobody really knows where each other stands with regards to competitive output of the PUs. Only 2026 will show where RBPT stands.

They don’t but that they are largely a carry over from the current gen more sustainable fuels minus the MGUH etc.

The current suppliers likely have a pretty detailed knowledge

RBPT have some talented people there but are starting from scratch more never produced an engine before would have more question marks.

But yes until we see them all in 2026 we won’t know for sure

This is Marko (12th August 2023).

https://www.planetf1.com/news/helmut-ma ... 026-engine

It is quite the opposite though Marko ensures, who believes while Mercedes are about on a par with the development of their PU, Ferrari and newcomers Audi are lagging “miles behind” in the process.

“I don’t think we are technically behind. We have brought in people from Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault and Cosworth [for the engine department],” Marko told Motorsport-Total.com.

“We have Ford as a partner in the sector. We have absolute top people on the combustion engine. And we have two very bright minds on the electric side.

“In August, we are running a complete combustion engine with MGU-K and battery. There we are miles ahead of Audi, we are miles ahead of Ferrari, and Mercedes is about the same.”

[CHT]

That article actually contains some very good information. So it isn’t about the engine per se, Max just needs Marko to also decide on the big things, like it was. Marko (I forgot about this, the sponsor deal with Geox) where Horner struck the deal on his own authority and Dietrich Mateschitz wanted to fire him on the spot. Marko prevented that. There is no loyalty. A big shame. Why do people always have to be like this. Team, together everyone achieves more.

Max, Marko, CH, AN, etc are all employees and their relationships are likely more for commercial or utility purposes rather than true friendship, and there is no such thing as loyalty in this business. e.g Max may be close to Marko, because Max know Marko can get him a drive at RBR.

The moment RBR fails to provide Max a winning car, he will switch team, and the moment CH cannot deliver the result, he will be replaced. Or if AN feels he has enough of F1, he will quit. And F1 team will have to follow where the money leads them.

The conspiracy I have is that Marko may be talking too much behind the scenes, and he and Toto being Austrian may be making things a little more complicated. Although RBR is an Austrian team, I think the culture within the team may be more British than Austrian. This may also explain why Max and his father Jos (being Dutch) may feel closer to Marko than CH.

[organic]

That article actually contains some very good information. So it isn’t about the engine per se, Max just needs Marko to also decide on the big things, like it was. Marko (I forgot about this, the sponsor deal with Geox) where Horner struck the deal on his own authority and Dietrich Mateschitz wanted to fire him on the spot. Marko prevented that. There is no loyalty. A big shame. Why do people always have to be like this. Team, together everyone achieves more.

Max, Marko, CH, AN, etc are all employees and their relationships are likely more for commercial or utility purposes rather than true friendship, and there is no such thing as loyalty in this business. e.g Max may be close to Marko, because Max know Marko can get him a drive at RBR.

The moment RBR fails to provide Max a winning car, he will switch team, and the moment CH cannot deliver the result, he will be replaced. Or if AN feels he has enough of F1, he will quit. And F1 team will have to follow where the money leads them.

The conspiracy I have is that Marko may be talking too much behind the scenes, and he and Toto being Austrian may be making things a little more complicated. Although RBR is an Austrian team, I think the culture within the team may be more British than Austrian. This may also explain why Max and his father Jos (being Dutch) may feel closer to Marko than CH.

F1 is a people sport. The reason why the team is successful is because of the people the team has. You act like RB can simply replace the figures that may leave

[CHT]

That article actually contains some very good information. So it isn’t about the engine per se, Max just needs Marko to also decide on the big things, like it was. Marko (I forgot about this, the sponsor deal with Geox) where Horner struck the deal on his own authority and Dietrich Mateschitz wanted to fire him on the spot. Marko prevented that. There is no loyalty. A big shame. Why do people always have to be like this. Team, together everyone achieves more.

Max, Marko, CH, AN, etc are all employees and their relationships are likely more for commercial or utility purposes rather than true friendship, and there is no such thing as loyalty in this business. e.g Max may be close to Marko, because Max know Marko can get him a drive at RBR.

The moment RBR fails to provide Max a winning car, he will switch team, and the moment CH cannot deliver the result, he will be replaced. Or if AN feels he has enough of F1, he will quit. And F1 team will have to follow where the money leads them.

The conspiracy I have is that Marko may be talking too much behind the scenes, and he and Toto being Austrian may be making things a little more complicated. Although RBR is an Austrian team, I think the culture within the team may be more British than Austrian. This may also explain why Max and his father Jos (being Dutch) may feel closer to Marko than CH.

F1 is a people sport. The reason why the team is successful is because of the people the team has. You act like RB can simply replace the figures that may leave

F1 is of course a team sport and the founding team of the RBR team have done an incredible job, so there is no reason to say one is better or more important than the other. And the reason why they stick together is because of a common goal to become WCC. Now that they achieved all their KPIs and beyond, the next immediate challenge will be RBPT and grooming successors. Marko is already in 80s, its simply impossible for RBR to not think of RBR without Marko.

[Watto]

Mercedes was supplying engines for McLaren in 2012 and untill 2014. Mercedes had a dog of a car in 2012 and the Daimler share holders were calling to stop the F1 program. McLaren had the fastest car, but unreliable. He left McLaren, because he was fed up with Ron's controlling behaviour, McLaren poor racing management on track and seeming difficulty in beating Red Bul. Self admittedly, Mercedes didn't know where they stood with regards to the output of 2014 PU as they didn't have one reliable PU running for them until 2014! Completely different facts.

Same applies to 2026 PUs. Nobody really knows where each other stands with regards to competitive output of the PUs. Only 2026 will show where RBPT stands.

They don’t but that they are largely a carry over from the current gen more sustainable fuels minus the MGUH etc.

The current suppliers likely have a pretty detailed knowledge

RBPT have some talented people there but are starting from scratch more never produced an engine before would have more question marks.

But yes until we see them all in 2026 we won’t know for sure

This is Marko (12th August 2023).

https://www.planetf1.com/news/helmut-ma ... 026-engine

It is quite the opposite though Marko ensures, who believes while Mercedes are about on a par with the development of their PU, Ferrari and newcomers Audi are lagging “miles behind” in the process.

“I don’t think we are technically behind. We have brought in people from Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault and Cosworth [for the engine department],” Marko told Motorsport-Total.com.

“We have Ford as a partner in the sector. We have absolute top people on the combustion engine. And we have two very bright minds on the electric side.

“In August, we are running a complete combustion engine with MGU-K and battery. There we are miles ahead of Audi, we are miles ahead of Ferrari, and Mercedes is about the same.”

It’s again not saying they won’t get an engine in par with the other just there is more for them to to do, validation tool, work flow etc . The others have well established factories, design processes, validation tools and so on you’d naturally have a few more red flags. Work in a lab vs on track etc. just cause they have a test engine running can be a long way from how well power, engine life ICE interaction with MGUK etc


If you were to ask who may run into issues because of all that, even if largely unfounded, RBPT would likely be your candidate

[CHT]

They don’t but that they are largely a carry over from the current gen more sustainable fuels minus the MGUH etc.

The current suppliers likely have a pretty detailed knowledge

RBPT have some talented people there but are starting from scratch more never produced an engine before would have more question marks.

But yes until we see them all in 2026 we won’t know for sure

This is Marko (12th August 2023).

https://www.planetf1.com/news/helmut-ma ... 026-engine

It is quite the opposite though Marko ensures, who believes while Mercedes are about on a par with the development of their PU, Ferrari and newcomers Audi are lagging “miles behind” in the process.

“I don’t think we are technically behind. We have brought in people from Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault and Cosworth [for the engine department],” Marko told Motorsport-Total.com.

“We have Ford as a partner in the sector. We have absolute top people on the combustion engine. And we have two very bright minds on the electric side.

“In August, we are running a complete combustion engine with MGU-K and battery. There we are miles ahead of Audi, we are miles ahead of Ferrari, and Mercedes is about the same.”

It’s again not saying they won’t get an engine in par with the other just there is more for them to to do, validation tool, work flow etc . The others have well established factories, design processes, validation tools and so on you’d naturally have a few more red flags. Work in a lab vs on track etc. just cause they have a test engine running can be a long way from how well power, engine life ICE interaction with MGUK etc


If you were to ask who may run into issues because of all that, even if largely unfounded, RBPT would likely be your candidate

I think the main advantages of having an in house power unit division are exclusivity to technology and also allow engineers from engine and chassis department to work closers.

At the moment, I am sure guys at Honda will not have information about what AN and the team are doing in the factory. So its not just about getting a company to produce engine and for sure RBR are not doing this for the sake of having their own engine either.

[Vanja #66]

Mercedes was supplying engines for McLaren in 2012 and untill 2014. Mercedes had a dog of a car in 2012 and the Daimler share holders were calling to stop the F1 program. McLaren had the fastest car, but unreliable. He left McLaren, because he was fed up with Ron's controlling behaviour, McLaren poor racing management on track and seeming difficulty in beating Red Bul. Self admittedly, Mercedes didn't know where they stood with regards to the output of 2014 PU as they didn't have one reliable PU running for them until 2014! Completely different facts.

Same applies to 2026 PUs. Nobody really knows where each other stands with regards to competitive output of the PUs. Only 2026 will show where RBPT stands.

You are right. Who am I to convince you otherwise

[bluechris]

Why on earth Max will go to MB? you saw any signs the last years that MB is anywhere near the car that he drives now? Max is not stupid no matter what he says for the matter. Its just politics to support Marko. Even Hamilton left them.

It seems it's all about the very very poor 26 RBPT PU and Max wants to make an excuse to leave and avoid paying penalties for contract breach/leaving before 2028. Still just speculation, but a lot of rumours going into the same direction.

If i was Max and i had to leave from RB, i see as option the Aston Martin. The team has possibilities and don't forget that they have Honda soon.

[Vanja #66]

If i was Max and i had to leave from RB, i see as option the Aston Martin. The team has possibilities and don't forget that they have Honda soon.

They need to improve and change a lot more about their approach to car design to be able to sustain a consistent full-season title challenge. It doesn't look like their engineering dept is on top of it's internal processes and procedures.

[Watto]

This is Marko (12th August 2023).

https://www.planetf1.com/news/helmut-ma ... 026-engine

It’s again not saying they won’t get an engine in par with the other just there is more for them to to do, validation tool, work flow etc . The others have well established factories, design processes, validation tools and so on you’d naturally have a few more red flags. Work in a lab vs on track etc. just cause they have a test engine running can be a long way from how well power, engine life ICE interaction with MGUK etc


If you were to ask who may run into issues because of all that, even if largely unfounded, RBPT would likely be your candidate

I think the main advantages of having an in house power unit division are exclusivity to technology and also allow engineers from engine and chassis department to work closers.

At the moment, I am sure guys at Honda will not have information about what AN and the team are doing in the factory. So its not just about getting a company to produce engine and for sure RBR are not doing this for the sake of having their own engine either.

fair point so leaves Merc and Ferrari with the most established end to end system for engines dev and chassis

[mendis]

One thing our speculation has to account for is the screenshots. If it was her wanting to share she doesn't need to do that does she. It was someone else, who had access to her phone. And if she was being abusively controlled she can just out the abuser and have an easy win. I mean, if you're an abuser and you want to ruin your own life instead of hers all you have to do is use WhatsApp for it.

Wrong thread.

[Venturiation]

One thing our speculation has to account for is the screenshots. If it was her wanting to share she doesn't need to do that does she. It was someone else, who had access to her phone. And if she was being abusively controlled she can just out the abuser and have an easy win. I mean, if you're an abuser and you want to ruin your own life instead of hers all you have to do is use WhatsApp for it.

The investigators had access to it

[CaribouBread]

Good comparison by Yelistner