Christian Horner under Investigation

[f1jcw]

If this is true (I am hesitant), then it's a criminal offence to break company confidentiality and leak the sensitive information. Not sure if he had the consent of the woman while leaking this.

I wonder if Max knew about this all along, as he and Jos are really close to Marko. If they did then they become liable for failing to report and hence being participant in a criminal conspiracy of breaching the company confidentiality and causing mental distress to both Horner and woman and loss of reputation.

If I am Horner, I would ensure that Marko would be behind the bars, if Red Bull GmbH investigation of Marko finds material evidence to term him guilty. Does Toto still want to hire Marko?

I hope this is not true.

So, this needs punishing by jail, but a bit of sexual intimidation from a CEO to an employee, naaa that’s nothing?
Is that right.

[mendis]

If this is true (I am hesitant), then it's a criminal offence to break company confidentiality and leak the sensitive information. Not sure if he had the consent of the woman while leaking this.

I wonder if Max knew about this all along, as he and Jos are really close to Marko. If they did then they become liable for failing to report and hence being participant in a criminal conspiracy of breaching the company confidentiality and causing mental distress to both Horner and woman and loss of reputation.

If I am Horner, I would ensure that Marko would be behind the bars, if Red Bull GmbH investigation of Marko finds material evidence to term him guilty. Does Toto still want to hire Marko?

I hope this is not true.

So, this needs punishing by jail, but a bit of sexual intimidation from a CEO to an employee, naaa that’s nothing?
Is that right.

KC barrister and Red Bull GmbH has cleared Horner of wrong doing. If you or the woman thinks the decision was unfair, then a criminal court case is an option to seek it. As much as it's an option for Horner to take Marko to court, "IF" Red Bull finds out it was Marko who leaked it. I would support a court decision in both cases. Would you?

[chrisc90]

That depends. If Marko was the leaker and he firmly believes the investigation was not properly conducted (or not properly taken into consideration when the case was dismissed) there's an ethical case to be made for leaking. I certainly would not hold the person who "broke the rules" by leaking a cover up in the same regard as the person who broke the rules/law and then orchestrated the covering up of that transgression. Whistleblowing is an important thing, albeit flawed. Btw, I believe Marko is the one who appointed Horner. And again, this is a case of the dominoes falling. Marko goes, Max goes, Newey is rumoured to side with them. Who else goes? Those three are the biggest names in the company (with Horner), the chances that they are the only ones who have a problem with Horner is low. There could be a big exodus. As for Max I could certainly see him driving for Merc if Marko goes.

Colours respond to bolded/colored text in quotation.

There is that, however leaking confidential information to the nature it was done doesn't make it right. Whistleblowing is one thing, but leaking the case details of the person bringing a grievance is another thing altogether in my opinion. If Marko felt that the case wasnt conducted properly, then he would surely suggest that the original person to go down another route - especially given RB GmBH gave the option of an appeal in their statement. So she/he/they would have had the chance to go to a tribunal, where it would be independently heard or if there was serious misconduct, a court of law. The 'court of public opinion' does nothing to help your case if there was genuine concern of how a case was handled. That method is only there if you want to try put a target on someones back - which in this case - up to now - has failed as RB GmBH dismissed the grievance.



It was only however many hundreds of pages ago that Newey was tied to Horner. Now Newey is tied to Marko. I will be massively surprised if any of the senior figures contracts are tied to each other.

[f1jcw]

If this is true (I am hesitant), then it's a criminal offence to break company confidentiality and leak the sensitive information. Not sure if he had the consent of the woman while leaking this.

I wonder if Max knew about this all along, as he and Jos are really close to Marko. If they did then they become liable for failing to report and hence being participant in a criminal conspiracy of breaching the company confidentiality and causing mental distress to both Horner and woman and loss of reputation.

If I am Horner, I would ensure that Marko would be behind the bars, if Red Bull GmbH investigation of Marko finds material evidence to term him guilty. Does Toto still want to hire Marko?

I hope this is not true.

So, this needs punishing by jail, but a bit of sexual intimidation from a CEO to an employee, naaa that’s nothing?
Is that right.

KC barrister and Red Bull GmbH has cleared Horner of wrong doing. If you or the woman thinks the decision was unfair, then a criminal court case is an option to seek it. As much as it's an option for Horner to take Marko to court, "IF" Red Bull finds out it was Marko who leaked it. I would support a court decision in both cases. Would you?

KC barrister never cleared anyone, how many times do you need to be told that.

The Thai owners cleared their own son of the murder of a policeman, do you think that means anything? Do you think Redbull clearing anything means anything.


I support the whistleblowers when it is uncovering the abuse of employees and is covered up by the company, I think everyone should. I take it you think the people who uncovered Harvey weinstein should now be in jail for coming forward?

Redbull have now offered 1 million to the woman to try and prevent a court case, seems they have something to hide

[myurr]

Jos speaking out against Horner some more: https://www.independent.co.uk/f1/christ ... 09876.html

Max Verstappen’s dad has giving his sympathy to Horner’s accuser, who has now been suspended by Red Bull, and has said it is “too late” for Horner to simply draw a line under the scandal, as the team principal has tried to do.

“I sympathise with the woman, with all that she went through, but we will see what happens,” Jos Verstappen told MailOnline, referring to Horner’s accuser who has now been suspended

[f1jcw]

From Autosport poster Marklar

according to RTL Red Bull has increased Horner's settlement offer to the woman to 1 million and thus prevented her from taking legal action (basically buying her silence), would explain the more smug recent approach.

[Watto]

Someone leaked it without a question, I said over on autosport that there wasnt many people who could realistically be responsible for a leak: Link here

Red Bull are truly right to be, or looking to be suspending staff that they believe could be responsible whilst its investigated. (obviously Horner would be a bit silly to leak his own messages so probably why he's not suspended).

I think IF (BIG IF) it was Marko that leaked the messages, then there becomes a point where enough is enough. He's managed to stay by the skin of his teeth on previous cases. Maybe its a cover up from Jos and Max to put pressure on RB to have Marko stay by claiming that he's part of the team, and thus the media comments from Max are almost 'to his defence' in not wanting RB HQ to sack him.

I'm not even sure I wholly agree with Max in his media interview the other day about who built the team (where he excluded Christian from the comments). I'm sure Christian would have done equally as much, if not more than Marko in getting the team to the success they are at today. And even then it filters down to the staff you have working for you etc.

Max needs to be clever with his decisions, Marko is 80year old now and certainly no 'spring chicken' anymore and got to question how much longer he has being able to sustain workloads, travelling etc. Marko was certainly responsible for bringing Max into F1, and a very right decision that was at the time.

Certainly a tough call, i'm more than certain that Max can survive in F1 quite easily without the help of Marko being there in the paddock too. Even if Max reported back to Marko and Christian about the car, i'm sure Christian is more than capable of pulling any strings for ideas/concerns Max has about the car with the rest of the team. Infact, Max is probably better off sitting down with Newey and Wache than Christian or Marko about any development or concerns.

For one thing, Max isnt going to walk out of F1 in the next few months IF Marko is suspended or sacked, certainly not when he's by far the best driver on the grid, driving for one of the most slick teams on the grid in many many years when they are both at their peaks.

I certainly don't think Max would work alongside Toto well. Merc and their PR is just not in-line with how RB's and Max work. (hate to bring it up but look how much Russell changed when he was brought into Mercedes and how his interviews and character changed). That wouldn't work with Max in the slightest.

I can see Max going to Mercedes but also think Merc wouldn’t offer him as much as Merc. RB aren’t one sided but are quick to fall in behind and support a dominant driver.

I don’t know I see Marko going there nor Toto really wanting him if he tries to meddle , same with Jos; he’s been banned a few times by RBR from the team garage for abusing staff iiirc because he didn’t like the strategy RB gave him

[myurr]

From Autosport poster Marklar

according to RTL Red Bull has increased Horner's settlement offer to the woman to 1 million and thus prevented her from taking legal action (basically buying her silence), would explain the more smug recent approach.

It's a shame that this is how the rich and powerful get away with abuse. If it's true in Horner's case then I hope the details leak and people can judge Horner for who he is. I hope the sponsors don't allow him to sweep this under the rug, and I hope key people at the team put their morals ahead of their loyalty to the team.

At this point it seems the only evidence that Horner is innocent comes from carefully worded statements by Horner and Red Bull. Everything else continues to point toward him doing it and Red Bull engineering a cover up to protect him.

[f1isgood]

Someone leaked it without a question, I said over on autosport that there wasnt many people who could realistically be responsible for a leak: Link here

Red Bull are truly right to be, or looking to be suspending staff that they believe could be responsible whilst its investigated. (obviously Horner would be a bit silly to leak his own messages so probably why he's not suspended).

I think IF (BIG IF) it was Marko that leaked the messages, then there becomes a point where enough is enough. He's managed to stay by the skin of his teeth on previous cases. Maybe its a cover up from Jos and Max to put pressure on RB to have Marko stay by claiming that he's part of the team, and thus the media comments from Max are almost 'to his defence' in not wanting RB HQ to sack him.

I'm not even sure I wholly agree with Max in his media interview the other day about who built the team (where he excluded Christian from the comments). I'm sure Christian would have done equally as much, if not more than Marko in getting the team to the success they are at today. And even then it filters down to the staff you have working for you etc.

Max needs to be clever with his decisions, Marko is 80year old now and certainly no 'spring chicken' anymore and got to question how much longer he has being able to sustain workloads, travelling etc. Marko was certainly responsible for bringing Max into F1, and a very right decision that was at the time.

Certainly a tough call, i'm more than certain that Max can survive in F1 quite easily without the help of Marko being there in the paddock too. Even if Max reported back to Marko and Christian about the car, i'm sure Christian is more than capable of pulling any strings for ideas/concerns Max has about the car with the rest of the team. Infact, Max is probably better off sitting down with Newey and Wache than Christian or Marko about any development or concerns.

For one thing, Max isnt going to walk out of F1 in the next few months IF Marko is suspended or sacked, certainly not when he's by far the best driver on the grid, driving for one of the most slick teams on the grid in many many years when they are both at their peaks.

I certainly don't think Max would work alongside Toto well. Merc and their PR is just not in-line with how RB's and Max work. (hate to bring it up but look how much Russell changed when he was brought into Mercedes and how his interviews and character changed). That wouldn't work with Max in the slightest.

Max's entire press comments has completely undersold what Horner has achieved as a team principal in my opinion. It is almost as if he wants to actively avoid giving Horner credit for anything. Max is clearly in this together with Marko and Jos. Max is by far the best racer I have seen, but he might also be stupid and surrounded by people who are happy to take an entire team down just so they can settle their power struggles with a man. It is a terrible look for everyone involved in the end. The way in which Max talks you would think that from hiring to running the team to race operations Horner was just there merely for namesake and it was Marko doing all the stuff.

This entire saga has reflected terribly on Max, Marko and Jos, just as much as it has on Horner in my view. Max playing sly politics to keep an 80 year old is quite something, especially when the said 80 year old might have happily leaked confidential information to the public, bringing the company into disrepute, all to see only Horner go. It's clear none of them have interest in keeping RB together. They all want to do their own thing.

[Cs98]

That depends. If Marko was the leaker and he firmly believes the investigation was not properly conducted (or not properly taken into consideration when the case was dismissed) there's an ethical case to be made for leaking. I certainly would not hold the person who "broke the rules" by leaking a cover up in the same regard as the person who broke the rules/law and then orchestrated the covering up of that transgression. Whistleblowing is an important thing, albeit flawed. Btw, I believe Marko is the one who appointed Horner. And again, this is a case of the dominoes falling. Marko goes, Max goes, Newey is rumoured to side with them. Who else goes? Those three are the biggest names in the company (with Horner), the chances that they are the only ones who have a problem with Horner is low. There could be a big exodus. As for Max I could certainly see him driving for Merc if Marko goes.

Colours respond to bolded/colored text in quotation.

There is that, however leaking confidential information to the nature it was done doesn't make it right. Whistleblowing is one thing, but leaking the case details of the person bringing a grievance is another thing altogether in my opinion. If Marko felt that the case wasnt conducted properly, then he would surely suggest that the original person to go down another route - especially given RB GmBH gave the option of an appeal in their statement. So she/he/they would have had the chance to go to a tribunal, where it would be independently heard or if there was serious misconduct, a court of law. The 'court of public opinion' does nothing to help your case if there was genuine concern of how a case was handled. That method is only there if you want to try put a target on someones back - which in this case - up to now - has failed as RB GmBH dismissed the grievance.



It was only however many hundreds of pages ago that Newey was tied to Horner. Now Newey is tied to Marko. I will be massively surprised if any of the senior figures contracts are tied to each other.

If the process was a sham the appeal would likely be a sham. Now rumours are she's taking it to court, which is good. The entire point of a cover up is to keep it out of view of the public and others within the company, so a leak absolutely does something by exposing what is going on. If a person did something wrong and covered it up, there's no way of exposing that without "putting a target on their back", it's a rather redundant objection.

Newey was reported to be tied to Horner in early RB days, but no longer. As far as this scandal is concerned it's reported he is siding with the Austrian side against Horner. No one is saying his contract is tied to Marko, if he leaves he would probably just retire.

[f1jcw]

More on the above

[myurr]

More on the above

If true then clearly she was faking the whole thing

[Watto]

That depends. If Marko was the leaker and he firmly believes the investigation was not properly conducted (or not properly taken into consideration when the case was dismissed) there's an ethical case to be made for leaking. I certainly would not hold the person who "broke the rules" by leaking a cover up in the same regard as the person who broke the rules/law and then orchestrated the covering up of that transgression. Whistleblowing is an important thing, albeit flawed. Btw, I believe Marko is the one who appointed Horner. And again, this is a case of the dominoes falling. Marko goes, Max goes, Newey is rumoured to side with them. Who else goes? Those three are the biggest names in the company (with Horner), the chances that they are the only ones who have a problem with Horner is low. There could be a big exodus. As for Max I could certainly see him driving for Merc if Marko goes.

Colours respond to bolded/colored text in quotation.

There is that, however leaking confidential information to the nature it was done doesn't make it right. Whistleblowing is one thing, but leaking the case details of the person bringing a grievance is another thing altogether in my opinion. If Marko felt that the case wasnt conducted properly, then he would surely suggest that the original person to go down another route - especially given RB GmBH gave the option of an appeal in their statement. So she/he/they would have had the chance to go to a tribunal, where it would be independently heard or if there was serious misconduct, a court of law. The 'court of public opinion' does nothing to help your case if there was genuine concern of how a case was handled. That method is only there if you want to try put a target on someones back - which in this case - up to now - has failed as RB GmBH dismissed the grievance.



It was only however many hundreds of pages ago that Newey was tied to Horner. Now Newey is tied to Marko. I will be massively surprised if any of the senior figures contracts are tied to each other.

If the process was a sham the appeal would likely be a sham. Now rumours are she's taking it to court, which is good. The entire point of a cover up is to keep it out of view of the public and others within the company, so a leak absolutely does something by exposing what is going on. If a person did something wrong and covered it up, there's no way of exposing that without "putting a target on their back", it's a rather redundant objection.

Newey was reported to be tied to Horner in early RB days, but no longer. As far as this scandal is concerned it's reported he is siding with the Austrian side against Horner. No one is saying his contract is tied to Marko, if he leaves he would probably just retire.

The problem is it seems to be the Austrian side leaking the Newey stuff so I’d take that with a grain of salt. But also it s only Marko that’s said she’s looking at going the legal route so I’d say wait and see on that front , but it’s likely the only way we’d get real answers in this whole mess too many accusations one way and the other

[f1jcw]

Where are the Ferrari Newey reports coming from?

[Watto]

Someone leaked it without a question, I said over on autosport that there wasnt many people who could realistically be responsible for a leak: Link here

Red Bull are truly right to be, or looking to be suspending staff that they believe could be responsible whilst its investigated. (obviously Horner would be a bit silly to leak his own messages so probably why he's not suspended).

I think IF (BIG IF) it was Marko that leaked the messages, then there becomes a point where enough is enough. He's managed to stay by the skin of his teeth on previous cases. Maybe its a cover up from Jos and Max to put pressure on RB to have Marko stay by claiming that he's part of the team, and thus the media comments from Max are almost 'to his defence' in not wanting RB HQ to sack him.

I'm not even sure I wholly agree with Max in his media interview the other day about who built the team (where he excluded Christian from the comments). I'm sure Christian would have done equally as much, if not more than Marko in getting the team to the success they are at today. And even then it filters down to the staff you have working for you etc.

Max needs to be clever with his decisions, Marko is 80year old now and certainly no 'spring chicken' anymore and got to question how much longer he has being able to sustain workloads, travelling etc. Marko was certainly responsible for bringing Max into F1, and a very right decision that was at the time.

Certainly a tough call, i'm more than certain that Max can survive in F1 quite easily without the help of Marko being there in the paddock too. Even if Max reported back to Marko and Christian about the car, i'm sure Christian is more than capable of pulling any strings for ideas/concerns Max has about the car with the rest of the team. Infact, Max is probably better off sitting down with Newey and Wache than Christian or Marko about any development or concerns.

For one thing, Max isnt going to walk out of F1 in the next few months IF Marko is suspended or sacked, certainly not when he's by far the best driver on the grid, driving for one of the most slick teams on the grid in many many years when they are both at their peaks.

I certainly don't think Max would work alongside Toto well. Merc and their PR is just not in-line with how RB's and Max work. (hate to bring it up but look how much Russell changed when he was brought into Mercedes and how his interviews and character changed). That wouldn't work with Max in the slightest.

That depends. If Marko was the leaker and he firmly believes the investigation was not properly conducted (or not properly taken into consideration when the case was dismissed) there's an ethical case to be made for leaking. I certainly would not hold the person who "broke the rules" by leaking a cover up in the same regard as the person who broke the rules/law and then orchestrated the covering up of that transgression. Whistleblowing is an important thing, albeit flawed. Btw, I believe Marko is the one who appointed Horner. And again, this is a case of the dominoes falling. Marko goes, Max goes, Newey is rumoured to side with them. Who else goes? Those three are the biggest names in the company (with Horner), the chances that they are the only ones who have a problem with Horner is low. There could be a big exodus. As for Max I could certainly see him driving for Merc if Marko goes.

Marko leaking would make some sense. It would likely explain why messages leaked but not the KC report if it found wrongdoing on Horners part but RB chose to ignore it or if it was a small report designed to clear Horner.

I’d be curious too to hear from some lawyers over whistleblower protection laws vs data/confidentiality laws as reading a few people’s views on it it’s a very very complex area arguments in both sides can be made.