Red Bull RB20

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
Farnborough
Farnborough
102
Joined: 18 Mar 2023, 14:15

Re: Red Bull RB20

Post

Yes, Blackout, about the vertical inlet.

These images included in post a few above seem to show that view supported.
vorticism wrote:
08 Mar 2024, 17:42
https://cdn-6.motorsport.com/images/mgl ... nical.webp
motorsport.com

https://i.postimg.cc/BnTP3T4J/Screen-Sh ... -07-AM.jpg

Would you say the vertical duct is melding with the main duct? Or passing behind it.
The horizontal inlet APPEARS to be dedicated with it's internal direction to the "top" cooler in the sidepod, and no continuity toward the lower cooler matrix.

The vertical intake does seem to "flood" the lower cooler enclosure with it's direction and ducting as it comes away from the initial form. Looks like the remainder (not including the top cooler in sidepod) is the recipient of that vertical route

mzso
mzso
65
Joined: 05 Apr 2014, 14:52

Re: Red Bull RB20

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Venturiation wrote:
06 Mar 2024, 19:07
Even if the car is stable max says the bouncing is too violent


James Allison has said before that even if the redbull looks stable the drivers are suffering amd it's because these regulations are mistake in terms of suspensions
They can change regs unilaterally until April, right? They probably should, but won't and try to ram it through later.

I don't think Red Bull would be affected though. So far with every change they only became better then the rest.

Andi76
Andi76
431
Joined: 03 Feb 2021, 20:19

Re: Red Bull RB20

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mzso wrote:
09 Mar 2024, 20:49
Venturiation wrote:
06 Mar 2024, 19:07
Even if the car is stable max says the bouncing is too violent


James Allison has said before that even if the redbull looks stable the drivers are suffering amd it's because these regulations are mistake in terms of suspensions
They can change regs unilaterally until April, right? They probably should, but won't and try to ram it through later.

I don't think Red Bull would be affected though. So far with every change they only became better then the rest.
I think Allison is just saying that because Mercedes has problems with this type of suspension. Historically, Adrian Newey's cars (McLaren MP4-13, MP4-14 etc.) and Ross Brawn's and Rory Byrne's Ferraris (F1-2000, F2001) have always been very good. The cars back then basically had the same suspensions. I can't understand why this should be a mistake. The kinematics have simply become more important again, which I think is the right thing to do. It is just very demanding and difficult in contrast to suspensions that for example make it possible to separate suspension modes. But of course the people who are lagging behind in this respect are complaining. And as much as I respect Allison - Mercedes in particular is a big moaner. They already did that in 2022 with the bouncing when it became clear that they had problems with the floor and thought higher ride heights would help...which ultimately favored Red Bull's concept and made Ferrari's opposite one completely wrong.

venkyhere
venkyhere
14
Joined: 10 Feb 2024, 06:17

Re: Red Bull RB20

Post

Andi76 wrote:
10 Mar 2024, 19:30


I think Allison is just saying that because Mercedes has problems with this type of suspension. Historically, Adrian Newey's cars (McLaren MP4-13, MP4-14 etc.) and Ross Brawn's and Rory Byrne's Ferraris (F1-2000, F2001) have always been very good. The cars back then basically had the same suspensions. I can't understand why this should be a mistake. The kinematics have simply become more important again, which I think is the right thing to do.It is just very demanding and difficult in contrast to suspensions that make it possible to separate suspension modes. But of course the people who are lagging behind in this respect are complaining. And as much as I respect Allison - Mercedes in particular is a big moaner. They already did that in 2022 with the bouncing when it became clear that they had problems with the floor and thought higher ride heights would help...which ultimately favored Red Bull's concept and made Ferrari's opposite one completely wrong.
Haven't you felt that Mercedes is really an "engine team" who are just bang average with chassis (DAS was an exception) ?
3 yrs on, they haven't mastered ground effect. McLaren has, Ferrari has.

mzso
mzso
65
Joined: 05 Apr 2014, 14:52

Re: Red Bull RB20

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Andi76 wrote:
10 Mar 2024, 19:30
mzso wrote:
09 Mar 2024, 20:49
Venturiation wrote:
06 Mar 2024, 19:07
Even if the car is stable max says the bouncing is too violent
https://twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/stat ... 8648966651

James Allison has said before that even if the redbull looks stable the drivers are suffering amd it's because these regulations are mistake in terms of suspensions
They can change regs unilaterally until April, right? They probably should, but won't and try to ram it through later.

I don't think Red Bull would be affected though. So far with every change they only became better then the rest.
I think Allison is just saying that because Mercedes has problems with this type of suspension. Historically, Adrian Newey's cars (McLaren MP4-13, MP4-14 etc.) and Ross Brawn's and Rory Byrne's Ferraris (F1-2000, F2001) have always been very good. The cars back then basically had the same suspensions. I can't understand why this should be a mistake. The kinematics have simply become more important again, which I think is the right thing to do. It is just very demanding and difficult in contrast to suspensions that for example make it possible to separate suspension modes. But of course the people who are lagging behind in this respect are complaining. And as much as I respect Allison - Mercedes in particular is a big moaner. They already did that in 2022 with the bouncing when it became clear that they had problems with the floor and thought higher ride heights would help...which ultimately favored Red Bull's concept and made Ferrari's opposite one completely wrong.
Um. What?? The tweet/article is about the drivers complaining about the shocks and pain they receive. Including Verstappen. So clearly he's right.
Maybe Red Bull has the perfect suspension, which is great for performance, but still bad for the driver.

I can't understand why the FIA don't/didn't understand why the FIA didn't mandate a decent gap for the sidewalls (and some very high rigidity) in the first place. Though I was more thinking about dangerous loss of downforce rather than porpoising.
But I guess that still wouldn't be enough on bumpy circuits like Qatar. Where the little ride height and suspension travel passes a lot of shock to the driver's spine anyway.

KimiRai
KimiRai
257
Joined: 10 Aug 2022, 20:08

Re: Red Bull RB20

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Image

Image

JummyJimmy
JummyJimmy
0
Joined: 12 Mar 2024, 03:45

Re: Red Bull RB20

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Farnborough wrote:
04 Mar 2024, 15:19
Gills in "elephant trunk valley" appear to be exit of centreline cooling matrix that can be seen above engine directly when covers are off.
No images of inside the cover itself to see if there's directional path incorporated.

The whole strategy appears to separate each cooling function with semi discreet intake and outflow, likely by different cooling gradient ? for that dedicated function.
The sidepod main cooling function V matrix being of a consolidated group.

If these various elements can be "shuttered" individually, then that particular cooling circuit modulation may bring efficiency and size gains in being more specific to that duty cycle as opposed to being somewhat included within another profile of use.

Unsure if its generally realised with most race cars the big difference in cooling facilities when compared to most road vehicles. As a comparison, road vehicle being installed with maximised cooling capability, then modulated with thermostatic valves for liquid flow, airflow (active shuttered radiators) electric fans and temperature sensitive viscous coupled fan torque, a whole conglomeration of tools to first bring heat up fast, then maintaining at target temperature for continuous performance.

Race on the other hand, try to carry minimum cooling facilities, no thermostatic control, along with pure dependance on calculation / projection to cope with expected ambient conditions. Once set from exit venting etc, thats it for the race, they then have to work round what comes, likely by reducing PU, shifting to run in cleaner air etc.

These discreet exits with little to no interrelationship may allow a more tailored setup refinement to avoid drag and specifically prevent conflation in having to make broad choices to open general vents instead of now tweaking individual in reaction to circumstances.
I’m reminded of Helmut Marko’s interview from earlier this year comparing the RB20 to the “zeropod” Mercedes designs.

“They [Mercedes] were also convinced by the data of their sidepod-less concept, but in practice, it didn’t work at all. We will now see in the tests whether we can successfully implement this solution, or let’s say a similar solution. We don’t have it as extreme [as Mercedes], but we have it in a similar direction in terms of the idea,”

Also remember the rumors from around the time of the launch that there would be an even more Mercedes-like evolution introduced in Japan when cooling requirements were reduced…

Putting the puzzle pieces together, I’ll suggest that they will be blanking off the horizontal inlet and removing one of the heat exchangers. The vertical inlet will remain to cool the remaining heat exchanger. What’s a sidepod without a cooling inlet? A wing! The “similar solution” described by Marko.
Last edited by JummyJimmy on 12 Mar 2024, 04:23, edited 2 times in total.

Andi76
Andi76
431
Joined: 03 Feb 2021, 20:19

Re: Red Bull RB20

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venkyhere wrote:
10 Mar 2024, 19:46
Andi76 wrote:
10 Mar 2024, 19:30


I think Allison is just saying that because Mercedes has problems with this type of suspension. Historically, Adrian Newey's cars (McLaren MP4-13, MP4-14 etc.) and Ross Brawn's and Rory Byrne's Ferraris (F1-2000, F2001) have always been very good. The cars back then basically had the same suspensions. I can't understand why this should be a mistake. The kinematics have simply become more important again, which I think is the right thing to do.It is just very demanding and difficult in contrast to suspensions that make it possible to separate suspension modes. But of course the people who are lagging behind in this respect are complaining. And as much as I respect Allison - Mercedes in particular is a big moaner. They already did that in 2022 with the bouncing when it became clear that they had problems with the floor and thought higher ride heights would help...which ultimately favored Red Bull's concept and made Ferrari's opposite one completely wrong.
Haven't you felt that Mercedes is really an "engine team" who are just bang average with chassis (DAS was an exception) ?
3 yrs on, they haven't mastered ground effect. McLaren has, Ferrari has.
To be honest, I don't think it's surprising that Red Bull, Ferrari and McLaren are doing better. These are exactly the three teams that have engineers working on cars with ground effect underbodies in the first ground effect era. At Red Bull it's Adrian Newey who worked briefly on ground effect floors with Fittipaldi's team and then on the Indy Cars, at McLaren it's Neil Oatley who worked on ground effect cars at Williams and Ferrari have their consultant Rory Byrne who only works a few hours a year but probably has the most experience from his time in F2 and F1 in the late 70s and early 80s. Of course, the experience of these people brings certain advantages.

Andi76
Andi76
431
Joined: 03 Feb 2021, 20:19

Re: Red Bull RB20

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Every year again - the discussion about flexi-wings and TD018 has started because of Red Bull's front wing in Abu Dhbai

Image
Image

Andi76
Andi76
431
Joined: 03 Feb 2021, 20:19

Re: Red Bull RB20

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mzso wrote:
11 Mar 2024, 00:38
Andi76 wrote:
10 Mar 2024, 19:30
mzso wrote:
09 Mar 2024, 20:49


They can change regs unilaterally until April, right? They probably should, but won't and try to ram it through later.

I don't think Red Bull would be affected though. So far with every change they only became better then the rest.
I think Allison is just saying that because Mercedes has problems with this type of suspension. Historically, Adrian Newey's cars (McLaren MP4-13, MP4-14 etc.) and Ross Brawn's and Rory Byrne's Ferraris (F1-2000, F2001) have always been very good. The cars back then basically had the same suspensions. I can't understand why this should be a mistake. The kinematics have simply become more important again, which I think is the right thing to do. It is just very demanding and difficult in contrast to suspensions that for example make it possible to separate suspension modes. But of course the people who are lagging behind in this respect are complaining. And as much as I respect Allison - Mercedes in particular is a big moaner. They already did that in 2022 with the bouncing when it became clear that they had problems with the floor and thought higher ride heights would help...which ultimately favored Red Bull's concept and made Ferrari's opposite one completely wrong.
Um. What?? The tweet/article is about the drivers complaining about the shocks and pain they receive. Including Verstappen. So clearly he's right.
Maybe Red Bull has the perfect suspension, which is great for performance, but still bad for the driver.

I can't understand why the FIA don't/didn't understand why the FIA didn't mandate a decent gap for the sidewalls (and some very high rigidity) in the first place. Though I was more thinking about dangerous loss of downforce rather than porpoising.
But I guess that still wouldn't be enough on bumpy circuits like Qatar. Where the little ride height and suspension travel passes a lot of shock to the driver's spine anyway.
And I honestly can't understand the drivers and agree with what Alonso said in 2022, which was more or less that today's drivers are crybabies. He also made the right point that the suspensions were just as stiff in the early 00s when he started driving F1. And nobody complained back then... which is why for me the whole thing is more politics, like 2022 from Mercedes. I haven't heard that Verstappen has complained, which of course could cast doubt on "politics" as he has a car that copes best with it. But with everything that's going on at Red Bull, you don't know if Verstappen doesn't already have a different agenda. However, it's a fact that 25 years ago the cars were just as stiff and nobody complained back then and nobody got hurt
was injured or suffered any damage. So I think you can be of two minds here.

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Stu
Moderator
Joined: 02 Nov 2019, 10:05
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Red Bull RB20

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Andi76 wrote:
12 Mar 2024, 08:16
Every year again - the discussion about flexi-wings and TD018 has started because of Red Bull's front wing in Abu Dhbai

https://postimg.cc/c63wCY4k
https://postimg.cc/sGzXvMwb
Thought this might get brought up as a talking point…
Regardless of the rights & wrongs, every team other than RedBull has the flap adjuster on the outside of the FW flap. You can see how much the ‘free’ end of the flap moves on the on-boards (indeed you could see the hinging mechanisms at play last year before the TD was enforced); however, you cannot see what is happening at the outboard end.
On the RB20 the adjuster has been moved to the in-board end of the assembly (a bit of eyeball CFD suggests that this item will have a similar effect to the new Merc FW vortex generator), meaning that although you can see the assembly flex it is impossible to quantify how much.
Downstream airflow is stabilised (the profile in the centre is maintained at all times - got to be good for body flows), downforce & drag are bled-off on the outboard end - probably having a positive effect on outwashing.

However…
As all of the other teams are using the same mechanisms how do they appeal???
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

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MtthsMlw
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Joined: 12 Jul 2017, 18:38
Location: Germany

Re: Red Bull RB20

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Looks like a different cooling layout where the outlet of the halo inlet fed radiators is not channeled out to the side but merges with the center-line cooler (?)
Image
via NicolasF1i

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organic
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Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Red Bull RB20

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MtthsMlw wrote:
12 Mar 2024, 15:21
Looks like a different cooling layout where the outlet of the halo inlet fed radiators is not channeled out to the side but merges with the center-line cooler (?)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GIePqXUWwAA ... &name=orig
via NicolasF1i
Top Saudi, bottom bahrain
Image



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TEHNOS
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Joined: 03 Nov 2011, 19:02

Re: Red Bull RB20

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Seems RBR has accumulated waste amount of knowledge regarding cooling arangements. They are turning around different cooling options like Lego bricks. Unlimited WT cooling testing time well spent.
I wonder if it is just shrinking down the overall cooling until serious drag reduction updates arrive soon?
Such a telented band. :mrgreen: =D>

Cs98
Cs98
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Joined: 01 Jul 2022, 11:37

Re: Red Bull RB20

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Andi76 wrote:
12 Mar 2024, 08:16
Every year again - the discussion about flexi-wings and TD018 has started because of Red Bull's front wing in Abu Dhbai

https://postimg.cc/c63wCY4k
https://postimg.cc/sGzXvMwb
Who is discussing it? This is on every car.