2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[KimiRai]

I found itt moreover interesting that a Merc engineer told him (about the Mercedes), that they have problems with the ground clearance, that they loose too much DF at certain ground clearance levels at the back, but don't know why.

[214270]

Surely, if you want to minimise pressure for your young star you limit exposure?

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1045585/1 ... -antonelli

Netflix, really?? Lol.

I’d imagine, Antonelli to Merc for 25’, is all but done.

Yeah probably. I think it’s 14 races in F2; we’re 2 down and he’s a fair bit away from 3rd, let alone even in the championship fight. Needs to get a move on

[Fluido]

I have felt that Mercedes is really an "engine team" who are just bang average with chassis (DAS was an exception). Their glory years 2014-2021 was fundamentally engine dominance, wasn't it ? The first time they were put under pressure to get their chassis right, 3 yrs on, they haven't mastered ground effect. McLaren has, Ferrari has. Aston Martin has (either they struck gold or they admitted defeat and used Fallows to create an RB18 copy). It doesn't seem to make a difference whether Elliot or Allison, they simply can't get their floor right.

(i) Toto gleefully jumped into the boxing ring and armtwisted FIA into bringing in TD039, upon the advice of his engineers. What happened next ? Redbull got around it straightaway, Ferrari took some time, AstonMartin struggled, McLaren incorporated it into their mega update. Mercedes gained nothing.
(ii) they got tricked into thinking Brazil 2022 was their confirmation compass that told them they were on the right track, and wasted an additional year. Brazil 2022 was RedBull getting it wrong (like singapore 2023) rather than Merc getting it right. Anyway, had they 'understood' it like Mclaren did, they would've simply fielded the 2022 car until 2023 summer break and come up with a mega update in the middle of 2023, like Mclaren did.
Both of the above, stem from lack of depth in understanding about 'ground effect downforce', today they have to resort to previous-era like push-pull choices with wings alone, in deciding how to optimize the opposing requirements of downforce and top speed. My guess is they are in the zone where the task is to measure 235ml, but they have only containers with 1000, 500, 250 and 100 ml capacities.

Only RedBull, McLaren and Ferrari seem to have 'understood' ground effect, Redbull being the most clever of them, who has understood it to such detail that that not a single change they are making to the car is having drawbacks. It's surgical.

Yes that is true, people often forget that RB would be champion from 2015-2020, if mercedes engine wasnt so much better than renault and first honda engines
When we sum everything, RB is chassis champion from 2010-2026

[sport777]

I have felt that Mercedes is really an "engine team" who are just bang average with chassis (DAS was an exception). Their glory years 2014-2021 was fundamentally engine dominance, wasn't it ? The first time they were put under pressure to get their chassis right, 3 yrs on, they haven't mastered ground effect. McLaren has, Ferrari has. Aston Martin has (either they struck gold or they admitted defeat and used Fallows to create an RB18 copy). It doesn't seem to make a difference whether Elliot or Allison, they simply can't get their floor right.

(i) Toto gleefully jumped into the boxing ring and armtwisted FIA into bringing in TD039, upon the advice of his engineers. What happened next ? Redbull got around it straightaway, Ferrari took some time, AstonMartin struggled, McLaren incorporated it into their mega update. Mercedes gained nothing.
(ii) they got tricked into thinking Brazil 2022 was their confirmation compass that told them they were on the right track, and wasted an additional year. Brazil 2022 was RedBull getting it wrong (like singapore 2023) rather than Merc getting it right. Anyway, had they 'understood' it like Mclaren did, they would've simply fielded the 2022 car until 2023 summer break and come up with a mega update in the middle of 2023, like Mclaren did.
Both of the above, stem from lack of depth in understanding about 'ground effect downforce', today they have to resort to previous-era like push-pull choices with wings alone, in deciding how to optimize the opposing requirements of downforce and top speed. My guess is they are in the zone where the task is to measure 235ml, but they have only containers with 1000, 500, 250 and 100 ml capacities.

Only RedBull, McLaren and Ferrari seem to have 'understood' ground effect, Redbull being the most clever of them, who has understood it to such detail that that not a single change they are making to the car is having drawbacks. It's surgical.

Yes that is true, people often forget that RB will be champion from 2015-2020, if mercedes engine wasnt so much better than renault..
When we sum everything, RB is chassis champion from 2010-2026

What? Merc definitely had the best chassis in 2016, 2019 and 2020, don't talk nonsense

[Fluido]

What? Merc definitely had the best chassis in 2016, 2019 and 2020, don't talk nonsense

It's easy to be smart with excess power.
With more power you can handle more downforce and more induced drag... RB has best lift to drag ratio all these years.

In Aerodynamics there is no free lunch, if you increase downforce ,drag goes up as well.

[f1isgood]

I have felt that Mercedes is really an "engine team" who are just bang average with chassis (DAS was an exception). Their glory years 2014-2021 was fundamentally engine dominance, wasn't it ? The first time they were put under pressure to get their chassis right, 3 yrs on, they haven't mastered ground effect. McLaren has, Ferrari has. Aston Martin has (either they struck gold or they admitted defeat and used Fallows to create an RB18 copy). It doesn't seem to make a difference whether Elliot or Allison, they simply can't get their floor right.

(i) Toto gleefully jumped into the boxing ring and armtwisted FIA into bringing in TD039, upon the advice of his engineers. What happened next ? Redbull got around it straightaway, Ferrari took some time, AstonMartin struggled, McLaren incorporated it into their mega update. Mercedes gained nothing.
(ii) they got tricked into thinking Brazil 2022 was their confirmation compass that told them they were on the right track, and wasted an additional year. Brazil 2022 was RedBull getting it wrong (like singapore 2023) rather than Merc getting it right. Anyway, had they 'understood' it like Mclaren did, they would've simply fielded the 2022 car until 2023 summer break and come up with a mega update in the middle of 2023, like Mclaren did.
Both of the above, stem from lack of depth in understanding about 'ground effect downforce', today they have to resort to previous-era like push-pull choices with wings alone, in deciding how to optimize the opposing requirements of downforce and top speed. My guess is they are in the zone where the task is to measure 235ml, but they have only containers with 1000, 500, 250 and 100 ml capacities.

Only RedBull, McLaren and Ferrari seem to have 'understood' ground effect, Redbull being the most clever of them, who has understood it to such detail that that not a single change they are making to the car is having drawbacks. It's surgical.

Yes that is true, people often forget that RB will be champion from 2015-2020, if mercedes engine wasnt so much better than renault..
When we sum everything, RB is chassis champion from 2010-2026

What? Merc definitely had the best chassis in 2016, 2019 and 2020, don't talk nonsense

I think RB had a comparable chassis in 2016. In 2019, let us not forget the front wing rule change that directly played into Mercedes' hands, and by late 2020, RB16 was showing itself to be quite a good car. And in 2019, by the midpoint of the season RB was quite a good car, just underpowered relative to Ferrari and Mercedes, which meant they couldn't be competitive overall as a package on all tracks.

Merc certainly did have excellent chassis from 15-21, but were more often than not also matched by Ferrari and Red Bull. Certainly, having an engine advantage helps mitigate some aero issues. Right now it is clear that even if Merc had more than 20hp engine advantage it is unlikely for them to comfortably win -- something they did certainly enjoy during early TH era.

[sport777]

Yes that is true, people often forget that RB will be champion from 2015-2020, if mercedes engine wasnt so much better than renault..
When we sum everything, RB is chassis champion from 2010-2026

What? Merc definitely had the best chassis in 2016, 2019 and 2020, don't talk nonsense

I think RB had a comparable chassis in 2016. In 2019, let us not forget the front wing rule change that directly played into Mercedes' hands, and by late 2020, RB16 was showing itself to be quite a good car. And in 2019, by the midpoint of the season RB was quite a good car, just underpowered relative to Ferrari and Mercedes, which meant they couldn't be competitive overall as a package on all tracks.

Merc certainly did have excellent chassis from 15-21, but were more often than not also matched by Ferrari and Red Bull. Certainly, having an engine advantage helps mitigate some aero issues. Right now it is clear that even if Merc had more than 20hp engine advantage it is unlikely for them to comfortably win -- something they did certainly enjoy during early TH era.

the only RB chassis that I remember and liked was the RB14 of 2018, this chassis was really excellent and the best of that year, otherwise Merc had an excellent chassis, especially in 2019-2020, 2019 and the W10 was a gorgeous car, the way the W10 drove in the races it was just super and this RB20 is far from the race pace of the W10, I remember how at the British Grand Prix 2019 Hamilton drove the best lap on hard on the last lap, etc., for me the W10 is the best racing car, even better W11

[CouncilorIrissa]

Yeah, I rate W10 above W11 purely in terms of chassis performance relative to the competition. W10 had absolutely alien slow corner performance (remember Barca S3?) compared to the competition, whereas W11 was a bit better everywhere. But it also had an OP engine after the Ferrari deal and the changes to ERS that hurt Honda that exaggerated the difference.

[f1isgood]

What? Merc definitely had the best chassis in 2016, 2019 and 2020, don't talk nonsense

I think RB had a comparable chassis in 2016. In 2019, let us not forget the front wing rule change that directly played into Mercedes' hands, and by late 2020, RB16 was showing itself to be quite a good car. And in 2019, by the midpoint of the season RB was quite a good car, just underpowered relative to Ferrari and Mercedes, which meant they couldn't be competitive overall as a package on all tracks.

Merc certainly did have excellent chassis from 15-21, but were more often than not also matched by Ferrari and Red Bull. Certainly, having an engine advantage helps mitigate some aero issues. Right now it is clear that even if Merc had more than 20hp engine advantage it is unlikely for them to comfortably win -- something they did certainly enjoy during early TH era.

the only RB chassis that I remember and liked was the RB14 of 2018, this chassis was really excellent and the best of that year, otherwise Merc had an excellent chassis, especially in 2019-2020, 2019 and the W10 was a gorgeous car, the way the W10 drove in the races it was just super and this RB20 is far from the race pace of the W10, I remember how at the British Grand Prix 2019 Hamilton drove the best lap on hard on the last lap, etc., for me the W10 is the best racing car, even better W11

The 2018 RB chassis was certainly good, probably comparable to the Merc/Ferrari chassis and I agree with you wrt W10. I think the car was extremely well rounded, similar to RB19. Merc didn't maximize the car like RB did last year and could have won a few more races in my opinion.

[TeamKoolGreen]

There’s a chance the original zeropod W13 ends up being Mercedes’ most successful car of the 2022-2025 regs.


W13: 1 win, 1 pole, 17 podiums, 515 pts
W14: 0 wins, 1 pole, 8 podiums, 409 pts
W15: Off to a worrying start according to the drivers.

But I personally think that this is overblown. And Mercedes will have their McLaren at Silverstone moment. And they will have that moment starting from a higher level.

[Hammerfist]

There’s a chance the original zeropod W13 ends up being Mercedes’ most successful car of the 2022-2025 regs.


W13: 1 win, 1 pole, 17 podiums, 515 pts
W14: 0 wins, 1 pole, 8 podiums, 409 pts
W15: Off to a worrying start according to the drivers.

But I personally think that this is overblown. And Mercedes will have their McLaren at Silverstone moment. And they will have that moment starting from a higher level.

This tells me the zero pod was never the problem. The problem resides under the car. Their whole reason for ditching the zero pod was to eliminate the possibility it was an issue. It wasnt.
Rumors of an upcoming podless rb20 shall put a paid sign to that if true.

[venkyhere]

There’s a chance the original zeropod W13 ends up being Mercedes’ most successful car of the 2022-2025 regs.


W13: 1 win, 1 pole, 17 podiums, 515 pts
W14: 0 wins, 1 pole, 8 podiums, 409 pts
W15: Off to a worrying start according to the drivers.

But I personally think that this is overblown. And Mercedes will have their McLaren at Silverstone moment. And they will have that moment starting from a higher level.

IMHO that's a wrong way to look. W13 was undrivable. W14 and W14b was definitely an improvement. W15 is of course a much better car than the W14 ; just that the other four big-boy teams made more progress with their successive models to make the stats you presented look as bad as it does. Also, The W13 win was because Redbull got their car wrong (sprint weekend) in Brazil 2022.

[Stu]

There’s a chance the original zeropod W13 ends up being Mercedes’ most successful car of the 2022-2025 regs.


W13: 1 win, 1 pole, 17 podiums, 515 pts
W14: 0 wins, 1 pole, 8 podiums, 409 pts
W15: Off to a worrying start according to the drivers.

But I personally think that this is overblown. And Mercedes will have their McLaren at Silverstone moment. And they will have that moment starting from a higher level.

IMHO that's a wrong way to look. W13 was undrivable. W14 and W14b was definitely an improvement. W15 is of course a much better car than the W14 ; just that the other four big-boy teams made more progress with their successive models to make the stats you presented look as bad as it does. Also, The W13 win was because Redbull got their car wrong (sprint weekend) in Brazil 2022.

Thinking back (I don’t want to dwell too much on previous seasons in a 2024 team thread), there were various seasons through both aero rule-sets in the 2014-20 seasons where it was pronounced that Merc had a “Diva” car, so these issues are probably not new (the difference between a “Diva” & “Undrivable” being that they are not winning??).
There is no particular reason why the sticking plaster rule adjustments for 2021 would have any greater effect on Merc than anyone else - again there was never a ‘mule car’ run in 2020 FP’s by Merc.
The issue’s may be so deep-seated as to be unclear from within the team.

Now back to 2024 team…
Some strange messaging going on regarding similarities/differences in set-up between the two drivers (again - 3 years running now) which really doesn’t seem to be helping them resolve anything.
A shame.

[Waz]

Mercedes have been losing their senior engineers for around 5 years, in every department. They've lost important engineers on the engine side too.

Surely the important work is carried out by these people, and then verified or fine tuned with lower level staff?

A large brain drain is difficult to overcome and can easily account for all of the difficulties they have at both the track and factory.

The firm voices with a clear direction appear missing.

[Elite]

Is Jarrod Murphy still head of aero. Is he highly rated and sought by other teams? Or is he not leading the aero department efficiently. Just wondering as never see his name mentioned much.