Christian Horner under Investigation

[Stu]

^^ This is why this thread is being kept open^^

Zero tolerance on this subject elsewhere on the forum.

[basti313]

Horner does not unilaterally make the rules, he has an HR department and board oversight above him.

What else should the head/director of HR be other than a direct report to the CEO in this size of company?

Somewhat as myurr has said, He might be the CEO/Boss but companies like this have oversight. HR to make sure the company is working within the law, you could argue if its the CEO it makes things tricky for them; though I guess in this case they took the complaint to RBGmbH that own RBR. Red Bull technology. But if HR saw issues they could report to them the shareholders in the team, lawyers would/could report to the board in situations like this to make a call. Board can easily choose to ignore solid evidence that something wrong has occured which is why their are civil courts etc.

Please follow the topic, you are again mixing topics and falsifying the discussion:
I said, that the rules in HR, the rules about how to tango between employees of RBR are made by Horner in the end. There is no "oversight" in simple rule books. HR reporting unhappiness about a compliance system to the board??? Please stay realistic. Especially in a company where the US CEO was fired just 3 years ago on a compliance point he raised for not staying in line...

You are though right on the topic of the report of incidents. Of course it goes higher if an incident happens and this is what happened. But you can not relate the topic to broken rules at RBR as it is highly unlikely that they exist. Before Brexit they were not legaly possible in EU and after Brexit Horner would have needed to sign off on rules that he already broke...
And RBGmbH is also in the EU where private is private and a company can not generally rule how to tango. So there is also no "you are not allowed to tango with other employees" there.

Saward has made some little updates in his latest blog. Which makes for some interesting points depending on exactly what he knows and how reliable it is.

I like this notebook. I think it is spot on with the point that at the moment the whole thing is just a weapon used to get rid or to get profit from Horner. I am not feeling sorry for him, he made his own bed...but it is a very nasty way if this is true as your quote says very correctly. It exposes everyone, including the woman making the correct complaint, to a level that is not good.
What I mostly dislike in this regard is the role Jos is playing here. My feeling is he just puts fuel into the fire for some personal reason.

[Watto]

What else should the head/director of HR be other than a direct report to the CEO in this size of company?

Somewhat as myurr has said, He might be the CEO/Boss but companies like this have oversight. HR to make sure the company is working within the law, you could argue if its the CEO it makes things tricky for them; though I guess in this case they took the complaint to RBGmbH that own RBR. Red Bull technology. But if HR saw issues they could report to them the shareholders in the team, lawyers would/could report to the board in situations like this to make a call. Board can easily choose to ignore solid evidence that something wrong has occured which is why their are civil courts etc.

Please follow the topic, you are again mixing topics and falsifying the discussion:
I said, that the rules in HR, the rules about how to tango between employees of RBR are made by Horner in the end. There is no "oversight" in simple rule books. HR reporting unhappiness about a compliance system to the board??? Please stay realistic. Especially in a company where the US CEO was fired just 3 years ago on a compliance point he raised for not staying in line...

You are though right on the topic of the report of incidents. Of course it goes higher if an incident happens and this is what happened. But you can not relate the topic to broken rules at RBR as it is highly unlikely that they exist. Before Brexit they were not legaly possible in EU and after Brexit Horner would have needed to sign off on rules that he already broke...
And RBGmbH is also in the EU where private is private and a company can not generally rule how to tango. So there is also no "you are not allowed to tango with other employees" there.

Saward has made some little updates in his latest blog. Which makes for some interesting points depending on exactly what he knows and how reliable it is.

I like this notebook. I think it is spot on with the point that at the moment the whole thing is just a weapon used to get rid or to get profit from Horner. I am not feeling sorry for him, he made his own bed...but it is a very nasty way if this is true as your quote says very correctly. It exposes everyone, including the woman making the correct complaint, to a level that is not good.
What I mostly dislike in this regard is the role Jos is playing here. My feeling is he just puts fuel into the fire for some personal reason.

Fair enough on the first point I apologise for getting it confused.

Re Saward agree it was an interesting article and if the leaked messages are real I don’t feel even even the slightest bit sorry him, but I tend to think he’s also being very careful in what he writes on the subject too there are plenty of hints in the 2 notebooks where I think he’s researched enough to form a view he can backup- though he can obviously be missing things from his comments in the last blog he said he knows the woman involved so I don’t think he’s just using public information to form his opinion like most of the board.

Jos I think we’re in complete agreement it seems person, I guess that maybe Horner backs Checco a bit and behind the scenes gives more support Jos doesn’t like it- the accusations Checco deliberately crashed at was it Monaco quali last year? Jos being banned from the RB garage for arguing/abusing RBR staff - guessing Horner - for giving Max a poor strategy. I wonder too would Toto want the Jos baggage things at Mercedes fell apart car not up to scratch- maybe being equal between George and Max etc I feel like Toto or any TP would be wary of that as good as Max is.

[astracrazy]

What else should the head/director of HR be other than a direct report to the CEO in this size of company?

Somewhat as myurr has said, He might be the CEO/Boss but companies like this have oversight. HR to make sure the company is working within the law, you could argue if its the CEO it makes things tricky for them; though I guess in this case they took the complaint to RBGmbH that own RBR. Red Bull technology. But if HR saw issues they could report to them the shareholders in the team, lawyers would/could report to the board in situations like this to make a call. Board can easily choose to ignore solid evidence that something wrong has occured which is why their are civil courts etc.

Please follow the topic, you are again mixing topics and falsifying the discussion:
I said, that the rules in HR, the rules about how to tango between employees of RBR are made by Horner in the end. There is no "oversight" in simple rule books. HR reporting unhappiness about a compliance system to the board??? Please stay realistic. Especially in a company where the US CEO was fired just 3 years ago on a compliance point he raised for not staying in line...

You are though right on the topic of the report of incidents. Of course it goes higher if an incident happens and this is what happened. But you can not relate the topic to broken rules at RBR as it is highly unlikely that they exist. Before Brexit they were not legaly possible in EU and after Brexit Horner would have needed to sign off on rules that he already broke...
And RBGmbH is also in the EU where private is private and a company can not generally rule how to tango. So there is also no "you are not allowed to tango with other employees" there.

Saward has made some little updates in his latest blog. Which makes for some interesting points depending on exactly what he knows and how reliable it is.

I like this notebook. I think it is spot on with the point that at the moment the whole thing is just a weapon used to get rid or to get profit from Horner. I am not feeling sorry for him, he made his own bed...but it is a very nasty way if this is true as your quote says very correctly. It exposes everyone, including the woman making the correct complaint, to a level that is not good.
What I mostly dislike in this regard is the role Jos is playing here. My feeling is he just puts fuel into the fire for some personal reason.

I have to be honest, reading through your comments over the last 2-3 pages, I don't think you have a scooby about how a global group with subsidiary companies run by boards and CEOs work.

[izzy]

Re Saward agree it was an interesting article and if the leaked messages are real I don’t feel even even the slightest bit sorry him, but I tend to think he’s also being very careful in what he writes on the subject too there are plenty of hints in the 2 notebooks where I think he’s researched enough to form a view he can backup- though he can obviously be missing things from his comments in the last blog he said he knows the woman involved so I don’t think he’s just using public information to form his opinion like most of the board.

Jos I think we’re in complete agreement it seems person, I guess that maybe Horner backs Checco a bit and behind the scenes gives more support Jos doesn’t like it- the accusations Checco deliberately crashed at was it Monaco quali last year? Jos being banned from the RB garage for arguing/abusing RBR staff - guessing Horner - for giving Max a poor strategy. I wonder too would Toto want the Jos baggage things at Mercedes fell apart car not up to scratch- maybe being equal between George and Max etc I feel like Toto or any TP would be wary of that as good as Max is.

Yes at this point I'm guessing Jos is basically behind it, trying to get rid of Christian who was trying to get rid of him. How much he had to work with genuinely and how much he had to fake, I'm keeping an open mind. Most of the chat screenshots can be fine or terrible, depending whether a very few are real or manipulated.

We need to hear from her really, if she's sueing or what. If she does, I think she has to produce the actual chats, and conversely, if she doesn't sue, it might mean she can't as they're a bit different.

[CHT]

Re Saward agree it was an interesting article and if the leaked messages are real I don’t feel even even the slightest bit sorry him, but I tend to think he’s also being very careful in what he writes on the subject too there are plenty of hints in the 2 notebooks where I think he’s researched enough to form a view he can backup- though he can obviously be missing things from his comments in the last blog he said he knows the woman involved so I don’t think he’s just using public information to form his opinion like most of the board.

Jos I think we’re in complete agreement it seems person, I guess that maybe Horner backs Checco a bit and behind the scenes gives more support Jos doesn’t like it- the accusations Checco deliberately crashed at was it Monaco quali last year? Jos being banned from the RB garage for arguing/abusing RBR staff - guessing Horner - for giving Max a poor strategy. I wonder too would Toto want the Jos baggage things at Mercedes fell apart car not up to scratch- maybe being equal between George and Max etc I feel like Toto or any TP would be wary of that as good as Max is.

Yes at this point I'm guessing Jos is basically behind it, trying to get rid of Christian who was trying to get rid of him. How much he had to work with genuinely and how much he had to fake, I'm keeping an open mind. Most of the chat screenshots can be fine or terrible, depending whether a very few are real or manipulated.

We need to hear from her really, if she's sueing or what. If she does, I think she has to produce the actual chats, and conversely, if she doesn't sue, it might mean she can't as they're a bit different.

Does it mean the "women" was being used in this corporate tussle?

[izzy]

Does it mean the "women" was being used in this corporate tussle?

It's hard to know isn't it. If we believe Red Bull GMBH when they say she was being dishonest, then yes she was presumably part of it.

And then there's Ford and that pressure, the KC and his reputation, and the fact that Red Bull is all about brand, so they have a LOT to lose if they got caught covering up sexual abuse. And just imagine, if she goes to court and produces those messages in the original undeniable form, what a fallout that would be, after the Drinks Company dismissed it and suspended her.

So my thinking is still very tentative, but I think perhaps she ended up falling out with Christian, or she had a bit of Jos on the side, something like that, but it wasn't really coercive abuse as Jos wanted as his weapon.

[chrstphrln]

Does it mean the "women" was being used in this corporate tussle?

It's hard to know isn't it. If we believe Red Bull GMBH when they say she was being dishonest, then yes she was presumably part of it.

Have I missed something?
I don't know that anyone from Red Bull has said that.

[cirrusflyer]

I am reading on some local webpage (https://f1.avtomanija.com/2024/03/11029 ... aktivistke) that CH might leave before Australia. It looks as Thai owner no longer support him becouse some woman activists in US started to call people to boycot RedBull.
And also U2/Bono (some family ties with woman that was suspended) has written a song called "Dont be Horny, be a Christian"
Did enyone read something similar in your country?

[izzy]

Does it mean the "women" was being used in this corporate tussle?

It's hard to know isn't it. If we believe Red Bull GMBH when they say she was being dishonest, then yes she was presumably part of it.

Have I missed something?
I don't know that anyone from Red Bull has said that.

yes BBC Sport said Red Bull cited dishonesty as the reason given to her for suspending her. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68501426

[Wouter]

I am reading on some local webpage (https://f1.avtomanija.com/2024/03/11029 ... aktivistke) that CH might leave before Australia. It looks as Thai owner no longer support him becouse some woman activists in US started to call people to boycot RedBull.
And also U2/Bono (some family ties with woman that was suspended) has written a song called "Dont be Horny, be a Christian"
Did enyone read something similar in your country?

.
This was already posted in this thread on Sunday.

viewtopic.php?p=1198592#p1198592

This is the source:

https://f1-insider.com/formel-1-horner- ... ern-62457/

[Wouter]

Does it mean the "women" was being used in this corporate tussle?

.
It's hard to know isn't it. If we believe Red Bull GMBH when they say she was being dishonest, then yes she was presumably part of it.

And then there's Ford and that pressure, the KC and his reputation, and the fact that Red Bull is all about brand, so they have a LOT to lose if they got caught covering up sexual abuse. And just imagine, if she goes to court and produces those messages in the original undeniable form, what a fallout that would be, after the Drinks Company dismissed it and suspended her.

So my thinking is still very tentative, but I think perhaps she ended up falling out with Christian, or she had a bit of Jos on the side, something like that, but it wasn't really coercive abuse as Jos wanted as his weapon.

.
I can't follow your story. Do you think the woman wasn't abused by Horner? She pretended?

[chrstphrln]

It's hard to know isn't it. If we believe Red Bull GMBH when they say she was being dishonest, then yes she was presumably part of it.

Have I missed something?
I don't know that anyone from Red Bull has said that.

yes BBC Sport said Red Bull cited dishonesty as the reason given to her for suspending her. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68501426

Okay. So Red Bull did not.

[izzy]

Does it mean the "women" was being used in this corporate tussle?

.
It's hard to know isn't it. If we believe Red Bull GMBH when they say she was being dishonest, then yes she was presumably part of it.

And then there's Ford and that pressure, the KC and his reputation, and the fact that Red Bull is all about brand, so they have a LOT to lose if they got caught covering up sexual abuse. And just imagine, if she goes to court and produces those messages in the original undeniable form, what a fallout that would be, after the Drinks Company dismissed it and suspended her.

So my thinking is still very tentative, but I think perhaps she ended up falling out with Christian, or she had a bit of Jos on the side, something like that, but it wasn't really coercive abuse as Jos wanted as his weapon.

.
I can't follow your story. Do you think the woman wasn't abused by Horner? She pretended?

well I am juggling evidence. The point about the screenshots is they're just images, jpgs, they're not conclusive are they? Anyone can shop them. Then if you try and get all the other factors together, you end up with uncertainties and possibilities.

There are a few knowns, and one of them is Jos wanting to get Horner out. Another one is that the original chats haven't been produced, apart from possibly to the KC. A third one is that at this point Jos is out and Christian is still there. Then you have the factors I just mentioned.

[izzy]

Have I missed something?
I don't know that anyone from Red Bull has said that.

yes BBC Sport said Red Bull cited dishonesty as the reason given to her for suspending her. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68501426

Okay. So Red Bull did not.

link?