Christian Horner under Investigation

[izzy]

BBC is confirming the appeal, and also confirms that it's the board who made the decision not the independent investigator. This is currently on the front page of BBC news: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68576295

Oh, it sounds like she has to do the appeal before she can sue in court. And perhaps the politics are real:

The controversy is at the centre of a power struggle inside Red Bull, involving Horner, the motorsport adviser Helmut Marko, the team's three-time world champion Max Verstappen and his father Jos and manager Raymond Vermeulen, and the two owners of the company.

Last weekend, an intervention by Max Verstappen was instrumental in keeping Marko from being dismissed.

Chalerm Yoovidhya, the 51% shareholder has backed Horner and forced 49% shareholders Red Bull Gmbh in Austria to back down in wanting to force him out.

I was thinking it was just a lust triangle! But perhaps it is, as much as anything, with Helmut leading the Austrian side? A nationalism thing, with a Dutch faction as well. I saw a pretty polarised comment from Christijan Albers.

But still I keep coming up against the question why she hasn't simply shown say a journalist, a trusted one, the original chats on her WhatsApp account? Instead of the screenshots that aren't verifiable or 100% convincing. And who has access to her phone, to take them? If it does go to court then she is going to have to produce the original ones isn't she, so if they're different it's going to come out. The obvious reason is one or two have been altered and they change how they all read. And the KC did see the originals, or he was denied.

Or, the other way, if the screenshots are real then what are Red Bull doing trying to deny it? If she has WhatsApp chats then they're encrypted, undeniable, Red Bull are going to be caught covering up sexual coercion and their brand is going to be hit and brand is their whole product, with all the sports, healthy, girls, values.

It's all so illogical this is why I'm thinking emotional, about relationships, one of them being Christian wanting Jos out of the garage and Jos wanting to stay basking in reflected glory and have Horner out. Jos says it's tearing the team apart but why is it? He's not even pretending to be saving a damsel in distress. So he might have started it and then that's been the catalyst for some resentments. And he needs her to get some kind of a win, without actually producing the chats.

[Watto]

BBC is confirming the appeal, and also confirms that it's the board who made the decision not the independent investigator. This is currently on the front page of BBC news: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68576295

Good on her if she thinks she’s been wronged here. I wonder how far it will if Horner is still backed by the Thai owner.

I think though it makes 2 of the rumours as wrong one that she’d been paid off $1m

Also - less certain but the Horner will be sacked before the AusGP after losing the support of the Thai owner re it might hurt sales in the US, feel they could made that decision without the appeal if that was the case and hearing the appeal and making a decision in a few days is a very tall ask.

[Watto]

BBC is confirming the appeal, and also confirms that it's the board who made the decision not the independent investigator. This is currently on the front page of BBC news: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68576295

Oh, it sounds like she has to do the appeal before she can sue in court. And perhaps the politics are real:

The controversy is at the centre of a power struggle inside Red Bull, involving Horner, the motorsport adviser Helmut Marko, the team's three-time world champion Max Verstappen and his father Jos and manager Raymond Vermeulen, and the two owners of the company.

Last weekend, an intervention by Max Verstappen was instrumental in keeping Marko from being dismissed.

Chalerm Yoovidhya, the 51% shareholder has backed Horner and forced 49% shareholders Red Bull Gmbh in Austria to back down in wanting to force him out.

I was thinking it was just a lust triangle! But perhaps it is, as much as anything, with Helmut leading the Austrian side? A nationalism thing, with a Dutch faction as well. I saw a pretty polarised comment from Christijan Albers.

But still I keep coming up against the question why she hasn't simply shown say a journalist, a trusted one, the original chats on her WhatsApp account? Instead of the screenshots that aren't verifiable or 100% convincing. And who has access to her phone, to take them? If it does go to court then she is going to have to produce the original ones isn't she, so if they're different it's going to come out. The obvious reason is one or two have been altered and they change how they all read. And the KC did see the originals, or he was denied.

Or, the other way, if the screenshots are real then what are Red Bull doing trying to deny it? If she has WhatsApp chats then they're encrypted, undeniable, Red Bull are going to be caught covering up sexual coercion and their brand is going to be hit and brand is their whole product, with all the sports, healthy, girls, values.

It's all so illogical this is why I'm thinking emotional, about relationships, one of them being Christian wanting Jos out of the garage and Jos wanting to stay basking in reflected glory and have Horner out. Jos says it's tearing the team apart but why is it? He's not even pretending to be saving a damsel in distress. So he might have started it and then that's been the catalyst for some resentments. And he needs her to get some kind of a win, without actually producing the chats.

Having to go through the appeal process through RB always made sense to me. Often a court or arbitrator would like you to go thy the internal process to show you tried to resolves the issue. Opens the procedure they used and if it was wrong.

I doubt it’s wise for her to go public and talk to a journalist if she’s looking at potential legal action further down the road, don’t want to give their lawyers any grounds to argue against you should you go to court.

The part that maybe doesn’t add up to me is re the KC report. If it was just designed to clear Horner through a narrow window of investigation or had findings against him why hasn’t some of this leaked with the Austrian side wanting him out even if you didn’t leak confidential elements of the report something to cast doubt in the funds when so much from the Austrian side doesn’t add up.

I still see the likely result in the end as the messages are real and Horner should be removed, just with everything going on I’m not sure yet it all adds up.

[myurr]

BBC is confirming the appeal, and also confirms that it's the board who made the decision not the independent investigator. This is currently on the front page of BBC news: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68576295

Oh, it sounds like she has to do the appeal before she can sue in court.

It's not a requirement but the courts tend to frown upon cases where you don't exhaust all options to avoid the matter going to court. It can be viewed as wasting the court's time if you don't at least try for an out of court settlement / arbitration / alternative option first.

In this case the usual process is formal complain, appeal a decision you object to, then take it to a tribunal, then you can appeal that decision in some circumstances. It can be a long and expensive process if you don't find an early solution, and I'm sure Red Bull's lawyers will be doing all they can to make it longer and more expensive.

[myurr]

The part that maybe doesn’t add up to me is re the KC report. If it was just designed to clear Horner through a narrow window of investigation or had findings against him why hasn’t some of this leaked with the Austrian side wanting him out even if you didn’t leak confidential elements of the report something to cast doubt in the funds when so much from the Austrian side doesn’t add up.

I still see the likely result in the end as the messages are real and Horner should be removed, just with everything going on I’m not sure yet it all adds up.

You're presuming the part of the Austrian side that is leaking has seen it, and that if they have that they feel the circulation of the report is wide enough to cover their tracks should they leak it. For instance, if only Mintzlaff has seen it (I think it's above his pay grade, but hypothetically... ) from the Austrian side and it leaks then all eyes will be on him, and leaking a confidential document like that is a sure fire way to lose your job.

[Watto]

The part that maybe doesn’t add up to me is re the KC report. If it was just designed to clear Horner through a narrow window of investigation or had findings against him why hasn’t some of this leaked with the Austrian side wanting him out even if you didn’t leak confidential elements of the report something to cast doubt in the funds when so much from the Austrian side doesn’t add up.

I still see the likely result in the end as the messages are real and Horner should be removed, just with everything going on I’m not sure yet it all adds up.

You're presuming the part of the Austrian side that is leaking has seen it, and that if they have that they feel the circulation of the report is wide enough to cover their tracks should they leak it. For instance, if only Mintzlaff has seen it (I think it's above his pay grade, but hypothetically... ) from the Austrian side and it leaks then all eyes will be on him, and leaking a confidential document like that is a sure fire way to lose your job.

well again cast doubt on it why had it been hidden from the Austrian side, I said quite clearly you can easily leak non confidential elements here not many would’ve had access to the messages yet they leaked too. The Austrian sides wants Horner gone it doesn’t take much, first Horner was being investigated for controlling behaviour, it mentioned early in it wasn’t sexual based, then it changed to sexting - someone is leaking some fairly high end info on a so called confidential investigation from the start without really anything that can come back to bite- vague details

[myurr]

well again cast doubt on it why had it been hidden from the Austrian side, I said quite clearly you can easily leak non confidential elements here not many would’ve had access to the messages yet they leaked too. The Austrian sides wants Horner gone it doesn’t take much, first Horner was being investigated for controlling behaviour, it mentioned early in it wasn’t sexual based, then it changed to sexting - someone is leaking some fairly high end info on a so called confidential investigation from the start without really anything that can come back to bite- vague details

The investigation is a board level report, and is highly confidential. On the Austrian side I think Mateschitz is the only person who will have seen it. Who else is on the board of Red Bull GmbH who is sympathetic to their cause?

The text messages would most likely have been delivered to the HR department, so it depends on how tightly locked down their information management is. I've seen other examples where it's pretty lax and there are many within the HR team who could access such information. It only takes one to start gossiping and the rumours spread through the company, it only takes one to leak some of the files.

We don't know who leaked the information - if I remember correctly the first leak was that Horner was under investigation, which Red Bull confirmed. Then it leaked that it was to do with controlling behaviour, which could have been a leak from Horner's camp to dampen speculation and make it seem like a more mundane story. Or it could be a drip feed of information from the Austrians. If it was Horner's side then the leak that it was sexual in nature could have been an Austrian response to that misinformation - similar to how they leaked the texts in response to the grievance being dismissed.

You also have to wonder if they need to leak the report and how it serves their purpose. If the report shows Horner is guilty then it doesn't just damage Horner, it damages Red Bull to its core. Can you imagine the media storm that would follow, the questions asked of each and every sponsor, the pressure it would put on the drivers, etc.? If Red Bull were categorically shown to be illegally covering up a case of sexual harassment at the very top of the company then that has huge ramifications down to the level of staff quitting in disgust. That's the nuclear option that would only ever get deployed as a final act of vengeance.

For now the leak of the texts serves their purpose. It keeps the pressure on Horner, it allows them to keep the internal debate going, whilst the victim can pursue her case through appeal process and then the courts and keep this in the news for months.

[Wouter]

BBC is confirming the appeal, and also confirms that it's the board who made the decision not the independent investigator.

This is currently on the front page of BBC news: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68576295

.
The board of RB GmbH consists of:
Yoovidhya (51%) who does not want to lose Horner and
Mark Mateschitz (49%) who wants to get rid of Horner.

The article also says:
Chalerm Yoovidhya, the 51% shareholder has backed Horner and forced 49% shareholders Red Bull Gmbh in Austria
to back down in wanting to force him out.

[CHT]

BBC is confirming the appeal, and also confirms that it's the board who made the decision not the independent investigator.

This is currently on the front page of BBC news: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68576295

.
The board of RB GmbH consists of:
Yoovidhya (51%) who does not want to lose Horner and
Mark Mateschitz (49%) who wants to get rid of Horner.

The article also says:
Chalerm Yoovidhya, the 51% shareholder has backed Horner and forced 49% shareholders Red Bull Gmbh in Austria
to back down in wanting to force him out.

This is appeal against her dismissal by RB I think.

It is not an appeal against RB dismissing the complaint against CH.

[PapayaFan481]

But still I keep coming up against the question why she hasn't simply shown say a journalist, a trusted one, the original chats on her WhatsApp account? Instead of the screenshots that aren't verifiable or 100% convincing. And who has access to her phone, to take them? If it does go to court then she is going to have to produce the original ones isn't she, so if they're different it's going to come out. The obvious reason is one or two have been altered and they change how they all read. And the KC did see the originals, or he was denied.

Because doing so would likely make any legal case she might bring a lot harder to win and could even open her up to a legal challenge herself.

[Wouter]

BBC is confirming the appeal, and also confirms that it's the board who made the decision not the independent investigator.

This is currently on the front page of BBC news: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68576295

.
The board of RB GmbH consists of:
Yoovidhya (51%) who does not want to lose Horner and
Mark Mateschitz (49%) who wants to get rid of Horner.

The article also says:
Chalerm Yoovidhya, the 51% shareholder has backed Horner and forced 49% shareholders Red Bull Gmbh in Austria
to back down in wanting to force him out.

This is appeal against her dismissal by RB I think.

It is not an appeal against RB dismissing the complaint against CH.

.
This is an appeal against RB GmbH dismissing the complaint against CH.

[myurr]

BBC is confirming the appeal, and also confirms that it's the board who made the decision not the independent investigator.

This is currently on the front page of BBC news: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68576295

.
The board of RB GmbH consists of:
Yoovidhya (51%) who does not want to lose Horner and
Mark Mateschitz (49%) who wants to get rid of Horner.

The article also says:
Chalerm Yoovidhya, the 51% shareholder has backed Horner and forced 49% shareholders Red Bull Gmbh in Austria
to back down in wanting to force him out.

This is appeal against her dismissal by RB I think.

It is not an appeal against RB dismissing the complaint against CH.

It's in the headline of the article: Woman to appeal against Red Bull decision to dismiss complaint

[myurr]

BBC is confirming the appeal, and also confirms that it's the board who made the decision not the independent investigator.

This is currently on the front page of BBC news: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68576295

.
The board of RB GmbH consists of:
Yoovidhya (51%) who does not want to lose Horner and
Mark Mateschitz (49%) who wants to get rid of Horner.

The article also says:
Chalerm Yoovidhya, the 51% shareholder has backed Horner and forced 49% shareholders Red Bull Gmbh in Austria
to back down in wanting to force him out.

That's the shareholdings not the board of directors - they can be the same, they can be very different.

This article https://www.meiningers-international.co ... s-red-bull, as well as this article https://english.elpais.com/economy-and- ... nder.html#, suggest it's Frank Watzlawick, Alexander Kirchmayr, and Oliver Mintzlaff. So I'm now curious as to whether they made the decision, and how Yoovidhya / Mateschitz are able to project their influence onto the board. I would presume that Yoovidhya can fire the board members (although maybe cannot appoint alternatives without Mateschitz's approval, or something like that) and is keeping them in line in that way. I'd like to properly understand the power dynamic, so will try and find more information later today.

[izzy]

But still I keep coming up against the question why she hasn't simply shown say a journalist, a trusted one, the original chats on her WhatsApp account? Instead of the screenshots that aren't verifiable or 100% convincing. And who has access to her phone, to take them? If it does go to court then she is going to have to produce the original ones isn't she, so if they're different it's going to come out. The obvious reason is one or two have been altered and they change how they all read. And the KC did see the originals, or he was denied.

Because doing so would likely make any legal case she might bring a lot harder to win and could even open her up to a legal challenge herself.

Oh yes, so I see, good point. The screenshots are starting to make sense.

[Wouter]

BBC is confirming the appeal, and also confirms that it's the board who made the decision not the independent investigator.

This is currently on the front page of BBC news: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68576295

.
The board of RB GmbH consists of:
Yoovidhya (51%) who does not want to lose Horner and
Mark Mateschitz (49%) who wants to get rid of Horner.

The article also says:
Chalerm Yoovidhya, the 51% shareholder has backed Horner and forced 49% shareholders Red Bull Gmbh in Austria
to back down in wanting to force him out.

.
That's the shareholdings not the board of directors - they can be the same, they can be very different.

This article https://www.meiningers-international.co ... s-red-bull, as well as this article https://english.elpais.com/economy-and- ... nder.html#, suggest it's Frank Watzlawick, Alexander Kirchmayr, and Oliver Mintzlaff. So I'm now curious as to whether they made the decision, and how Yoovidhya / Mateschitz are able to project their influence onto the board. I would presume that Yoovidhya can fire the board members (although maybe cannot appoint alternatives without Mateschitz's approval, or something like that) and is keeping them in line in that way.

I'd like to properly understand the power dynamic, so will try and find more information later today.

.
Thanx.