Christian Horner under Investigation

[dans79]

If you look at no 66. It's a relationship, that's illicit and full of conflicts. They're talking about 'safer sleep recommendations', that he can't do in public. He makes a confession, about when she 'got him out of control' on a flight and she just asks if he finished off in the bathroom. In other posts she's complaining about him insisting on separate hotels because Geri is going to be around. He apologises and accepts her boundaries.

So you can pick bits out and reinterpret them, but when you read it all they were quite close. They're open with each other. They have been lonely. She sets limits perfectly easily, like 'nope', and he admits he's exposed himself emotionally to her. And he has. He worries about her judging him, she worries about him not trusting her, They were close enough to hurt each other, and I suppose that's what's happened.

The part of utmost importance is what happened after.

[myurr]

If you look at no 66. It's a relationship, that's illicit and full of conflicts. They're talking about 'safer sleep recommendations', that he can't do in public. He makes a confession, about when she 'got him out of control' on a flight and she just asks if he finished off in the bathroom. In other posts she's complaining about him insisting on separate hotels because Geri is going to be around. He apologises and accepts her boundaries.

So you can pick bits out and reinterpret them, but when you read it all they were quite close. They're open with each other. They have been lonely. She sets limits perfectly easily, like 'nope', and he admits he's exposed himself emotionally to her. And he has. He worries about her judging him, she worries about him not trusting her, They were close enough to hurt each other, and I suppose that's what's happened.

I don't think any are denying that it was consensual at some point, or at least it's conceivably possible it was consensual and not just her playing along. That's not the problem and nor does it excuse the rest of Horner's behaviour.

It's explicit in those messages that she withdrew whatever consent was previously present, and from that point onwards Horner has to immediately cease all sexual behaviour with her lest he fall foul of the law regarding sexual harassment. This is another reason why such workplace relationships are dangerous for both parties, if the employer is "dumped" (for want of a better term) and cannot control their feelings then they are liable within the workplace. It's clear from Horner's messages that whilst he tried to respect her wishes he was unsuccessful on multiple occasions and arguably ended up breaking the law in the process.

Horner has then compounded that (extrapolating from what we know, rather than me claiming this as categoric fact) with denials, coverup, and potentially abusing his position as employer to ruin the victim's career. Red Bull and Ben Sulayem have been dragged into it also, aiding the coverup and white washing.

It's a murky and mucky mess that should have been avoided by Horner staying faithful to his wife, or at least stopping the sexual behaviour once consent was withdrawn.

[Wouter]

The part of utmost importance is what happened after.

.
If you look at all 79 apps, you will notice that many of them contain the same apps and that it is only a very small part
of all app traffic and that often the context is also missing, and parts of most conversations are missing!
Her latest app is about the fact that she doesn't feel happy and wants to sort this out over Christmas.
Horner: I don't understand why. Is it because of something I did?
She: Like I said in the new year it will be different.
Horner: I am not controlling you and I did offer you a way out if you're not happy. Why will it be different in the new year?
(Here is something missing, she starts the next(?) app with "But".)
She: But I love my job and the team and the people I am around. That's not the issue. I don't want to leave unless I am told to.

I really have no idea what she meant by this last message. After this (it was said in mid-December by RB GmbH) she filed her complaint in Austria about what exactly? The apps do not show that they had a physical relationship or that he forced her to do anything.
He did not threaten her with dismissal, because then that app would have been on that Google Drive as proof. Apparently she has more evidence, otherwise she would not have appealed.

From the texts I gather that he had a crush on her, but that she did not respond to it. A little flirting back and forth. Then why did she file a complaint? I don't understand it at all anymore. Is she being used by someone to get Horner out? He has no friends within Red Bull except Yoovidhya if you can believe the stories.

[izzy]

The part of utmost importance is what happened after.

when are you thinking about? she might have said things since, but afaik the evidence of controlling inappropriate behaviour is the chats.

And she's not being controlled is she. in #68 he says "do you want me to stop", she says "Yes I do" and he says "ok understood, sorry" and she says "not because I don't like it"

And this fits in with her telling him she's in the shower or pyjamas.

So this is why the KC obviously had to dismiss the grievance.

[myurr]

So this is why the KC obviously had to dismiss the grievance.

The KC didn't dismiss the grievance, the board of directors did. The KC investigated and presented a report to the directors, the directors then drew their conclusions and chose how to act.

I also do not follow your logic for why part of the relationship being consensual, or Horner agreeing to stop harassing her, invalidates the claim that he then did not stop harassing her despite consent being withdrawn.

[myurr]

Horner: I am not controlling you and I did offer you a way out if you're not happy. Why will it be different in the new year?
(Here is something missing, she starts the next(?) app with "But".)
She: But I love my job and the team and the people I am around. That's not the issue. I don't want to leave unless I am told to.

I really have no idea what she meant by this last message.

I read this to mean that Horner offered her the option to leave the company, presumably with a golden parachute, to escape his behaviour - but that she didn't want to leave her job.

Nothing is missing. The conversation is "I offered you a way out, you can leave Red Bull" to which she replied "But I don't want to have to take that way out of leaving my job, as I love what I do and the people I work with".

"That's not the issue" refers to her job in itself not being the problem.

If that is what Horner is offering then it's a clear breach of employment law.

[pipoloko]

171 pages since this s...t started and we are still discussing about CH and a potential affair?
guys you dont know what is going on?
It is not new that CH want to spin off RBR and onw the team, whether is he going to succed or not ? depends en RB owners that is the only problem , is not about a laidy !!

We also mix into our debate pool, legality, morality and business aspects ; so that we have a proper soup that can be stirred

\
yeah a Venezuelan Telenovela, mixed with a Colombian and a Mexican one !!!!

[izzy]

If you look at no 66. It's a relationship, that's illicit and full of conflicts. They're talking about 'safer sleep recommendations', that he can't do in public. He makes a confession, about when she 'got him out of control' on a flight and she just asks if he finished off in the bathroom. In other posts she's complaining about him insisting on separate hotels because Geri is going to be around. He apologises and accepts her boundaries.

So you can pick bits out and reinterpret them, but when you read it all they were quite close. They're open with each other. They have been lonely. She sets limits perfectly easily, like 'nope', and he admits he's exposed himself emotionally to her. And he has. He worries about her judging him, she worries about him not trusting her, They were close enough to hurt each other, and I suppose that's what's happened.

I don't think any are denying that it was consensual at some point, or at least it's conceivably possible it was consensual and not just her playing along. That's not the problem and nor does it excuse the rest of Horner's behaviour.

It's explicit in those messages that she withdrew whatever consent was previously present, and from that point onwards Horner has to immediately cease all sexual behaviour with her lest he fall foul of the law regarding sexual harassment. This is another reason why such workplace relationships are dangerous for both parties, if the employer is "dumped" (for want of a better term) and cannot control their feelings then they are liable within the workplace. It's clear from Horner's messages that whilst he tried to respect her wishes he was unsuccessful on multiple occasions and arguably ended up breaking the law in the process.

Horner has then compounded that (extrapolating from what we know, rather than me claiming this as categoric fact) with denials, coverup, and potentially abusing his position as employer to ruin the victim's career. Red Bull and Ben Sulayem have been dragged into it also, aiding the coverup and white washing.

It's a murky and mucky mess that should have been avoided by Horner staying faithful to his wife, or at least stopping the sexual behaviour once consent was withdrawn.

well yes we don't know what happened later do we, except she made the formal complaint and these messages got leaked, after she finally agreed to delete them then didn't. So there was some kind of falling out, after this.

It is a messed up relationship isn't it, and I think she knows it's not really going anywhere, but she likes him, likes him fancying her, and he's really oversexed. And perhaps Geri understands that even, and with him being away half the time.

And then there's the bit with her saying he's jealous and doesn't trust her, and he's denying it and apologising. And sure jealousy can be a control thing, but she's suggesting he gets 'someone professional to talk to' and he openly says he's tried it. I mean, as a conversation it's pretty 50/50 really, especially considering the actual power between them.

[myurr]

well yes we don't know what happened later do we, except she made the formal complaint and these messages got leaked, after she finally agreed to delete them then didn't. So there was some kind of falling out, after this.

It is a messed up relationship isn't it, and I think she knows it's not really going anywhere, but she likes him, likes him fancying her, and he's really oversexed. And perhaps Geri understands that even, and with him being away half the time.

And then there's the bit with her saying he's jealous and doesn't trust her, and he's denying it and apologising. And sure jealousy can be a control thing, but she's suggesting he gets 'someone professional to talk to' and he openly says he's tried it. I mean, as a conversation it's pretty 50/50 really, especially considering the actual power between them.

Have you tried counting how many times she has to ask Horner to stop or tells him his behaviour is inappropriate? In the eyes of the law if it's more than once then there is a case that it's harassment. Bear in mind that these messages take place over months - this isn't a bad weekend after a messy split, it's a consistent pattern of behaviour over an extended period of time that is utterly inappropriate for an employer.

And the actual power dynamic between them is evident in her treatment since raising the grievance.

[Robbo]

I do not understand why she is not taking it to court.
Filling a complaint with the FIA comes over as political motivated to me. What is she hoping to archieve?

[dans79]

@Wouter @izzy

I suspect they texted back and forth a lot more than what the google drive images show. After all she worked for him.

What I meant by what happened after, is what happened after the texting stopped.

[dans79]

I do not understand why she is not taking it to court.
Filling a complaint with the FIA comes over as political motivated to me. What is she hoping to archieve?

If everything known to the general public is true, then at the very minimum she was always going to loose her RB job eventually, and would probably find it hard to get another job in the industry.

If it goes to civil court Horner has more than enough money to just pay her off, It's not like she is going to get a 50 million dollar settlement.

Thus in my opinion she wants him to loose his job as well. Aka an eye for an eye!

[myurr]

I do not understand why she is not taking it to court.
Filling a complaint with the FIA comes over as political motivated to me. What is she hoping to archieve?

It's been reported she's taking it through the internal Red Bull appeals process, which is the precursor to taking it to arbitration / court.

We can only speculate as to why she's complained to the FIA - my guess is that taking it to the FIA is a way to try and get something other than just a financial penalty for Horner. The court can only award her damages, it can't punish Horner directly. The FIA, as well as the general pressure such a case places on Red Bull, can cause Horner to lose his job.

[101FlyingDutchman]

And round and round and round it goes

[Venturiation]

fia are trying to cover it up

Why they announced the investigation when it was susie wolff then?