Christian Horner under Investigation

[Watto]

The complainant has now appealed against the outcome of the extensive investigation against Horner and her complaint against him.
The KC has submitted its findings (which no one else knows) to the board of RB GmbH, which consists of
Mark Mateschitz, Chalerm Yoovidhya, Oliver Mintzlaff, Frank Watzlawick and Alexander Kirchmayr.
These gentlemen have rejected the accusation. Unanimous?

If this appeal is rejected by these gentlemen, Miss H will initiate legal civil proceedings and that could take months,
while Horner will probably continue working. Helmut Marko, Max and Jos have said that the team must first find peace.
I don't see that happening as long as Horner continues to work.

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Is this reported somewhere or your opinion

that board group makes sense though

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This is not my opinion. I've read it on several F1 newssites.

Ah okay.

I've seen plenty of talk and rumor that she would look at the option nothing though that I would say as concrte I could contribute to her.

Things like Marko saying she would/could which I take with a grain of salt considering all thats going on. Not saying hes not correct and may now things. Just feels like vague leaks rather than a reputable source. The complain to the FIA is perhaps a good indication that its heading that way but again been there seen that all too often leaked posturing like Horners/RBR PR everything is all fine and dandy here at RB everyone is focused on the job, the shareholders of the team have given me their full support etc.

[Watto]

The complainant has now appealed against the outcome of the extensive investigation against Horner and her complaint against him.
The KC has submitted its findings (which no one else knows) to the board of RB GmbH, which consists of
Mark Mateschitz, Chalerm Yoovidhya, Oliver Mintzlaff, Frank Watzlawick and Alexander Kirchmayr.
These gentlemen have rejected the accusation. Unanimous?

If this appeal is rejected by these gentlemen, Miss H will initiate legal civil proceedings and that could take months,
while Horner will probably continue working. Helmut Marko, Max and Jos have said that the team must first find peace.
I don't see that happening as long as Horner continues to work.

They're going to dismiss the appeal aren't they, unless there's some new evidence we don't know about. She's said she's going to sue, but she hasn't actually done it yet, and it probably depends if someone is backing her.

If she gets objective legal advice they're going to point out she encouraged him to get to sleep by playing with himself, told him she was in the shower or in pyjamas, wound him up on the plane, offered to wear something he liked, and stayed online with him while he got off thinking about her. They'll bring up the lack of coercion or use of authority in the conversations, and the fairly intimate, caring discussion about mental health care. The 'controlling' argument isn't going to fly at all.

And then, the board have the huge question - who do they replace him with? He is quite weird, I mean the spax lol, but at the same time he's a very rare, special person to have got that team to where it is in every single department. So do they really want to swap him for someone normal? Who?

I don't think you can make a call on how the board may see it. It may have been a 3-2 split to keep Horner on we will see how things settle down. Now her appeal the FIA etc. You might only need 1 to change their mind and think its becoming too damaging. Time to move on rather than risk damage.


The 2nd para it feels like it starting to move far too much into victim blaming to me 'She shouldn't have dressed like that is she didn't want guys to....."


I' open to there being something in all this missing. But that to me comes across as vicri blaming in context to the messages and when she says no etc. A few have pointed out there few areas in there by CH that are a no go zone even as a joke ' the hes like her to finish him if she was there or somthing along those likes iirc.


The 3rd there is aways options the one that made the most sense that I read would be Jonathan Wheatly already well established in the team and would probably be things continue as normal from a racing pov. Few have suggested he even has a simular personality to Horner

[Wouter]

The 3rd there is aways options the one that made the most sense that I read would be Jonathan Wheatly already well established
in the team and would probably be things continue as normal from a racing pov.
Few have suggested he even has a simular personality to Horner

.
OMG! I shouldn't hope so, because if Horner leaves it means that Miss H will keep her job and therefore work closely with Wheatly!
Then everything starts all over again, many hours of working together in the UK and all over the world, same flight, same hotel,
texts back and forth until she files charges.
I can confirm he is a bit like Horner but not a simular personality. I think he would be a great TP.

[Watto]

The 3rd there is aways options the one that made the most sense that I read would be Jonathan Wheatly already well established
in the team and would probably be things continue as normal from a racing pov.
Few have suggested he even has a simular personality to Horner

.
OMG! I shouldn't hope so, because if Horner leaves it means that Miss H will keep her job and therefore work closely with Wheatly!
Then everything starts all over again, many hours of working together in the UK and all over the world, same flight, same hotel,
texts back and forth until she files charges.
I can confirm he is a bit like Horner but not a simular personality. I think he would be a great TP.

I meant obviously from a management pov listen to him in the RB miracle vid where Max crashed in the observation lap gives a nice insight into how well he organised and kept everything on the same page

[Wouter]

The 3rd there is aways options the one that made the most sense that I read would be Jonathan Wheatly already well established
in the team and would probably be things continue as normal from a racing pov.
Few have suggested he even has a simular personality to Horner

.
OMG! I shouldn't hope so, because if Horner leaves it means that Miss H will keep her job and therefore work closely with Wheatly!
Then everything starts all over again, many hours of working together in the UK and all over the world, same flight, same hotel,
texts back and forth until she files charges.
I can confirm he is a bit like Horner but not a simular personality. I think he would be a great TP.

.


I meant obviously from a management pov listen to him in the RB miracle vid where Max crashed in the observation lap gives a nice insight into how well he organised and kept everything on the same page

.
Yes, I know. I realy think he would be a great TP. Horner was always too but his fault was he wanted
to become the boss by buying the team last year.

[Watto]

.
OMG! I shouldn't hope so, because if Horner leaves it means that Miss H will keep her job and therefore work closely with Wheatly!
Then everything starts all over again, many hours of working together in the UK and all over the world, same flight, same hotel,
texts back and forth until she files charges.
I can confirm he is a bit like Horner but not a simular personality. I think he would be a great TP.

I meant obviously from a management pov listen to him in the RB miracle vid where Max crashed in the observation lap gives a nice insight into how well he organised and kept everything on the same page

.
Yes, I know. I realy think he would be a great TP. Horner was always too but his fault was he wanted
to become the boss by buying the team last year.

I think there is a whole lot to unpack from that did Yoovidhya approach Christian where he said he was interested RBR always seeed a bit of a passion protect fr Dietrich with is death did owning a F1 team entirely not really have a purpose over sponsoring with maybe a minor stake like maybe Mercedes eep the exposure limit costs. etc. Dietrich iirc approved a new RB wind tunnel not long before his passing probably knowing its not likely a good business case for RBGmbH with the costs to build one.

Granted that it was alll done behind Mateschitz etc back wasn't a great idea and no doubt I can see how it caused this whole conflict. If Horner saw the signs that RBGmbH could begin to have more oversight into the team its losing a lot of its identity. RBR biggest asset was always that they didn't need to justfy things. you win tell me what you need I will write the checks .

Certainly i am not sure you can hold that in itself against Horner. espcially if Yoovidhya provided an option it could have been fairly mundane conversation not liking were the team is heading fearing they make lose what made them s good, suddenly having to justify things to a board I wonder if RBGmbH would have green lit Red BUll powertrains in its current guise, what purpose does an engine program serve RB if they can buy a good engine from someone else with lst risk - Porsche .forming into maybe selling all or part of the team to Horner and some investors.

Still lots of ifs buts and maybes on what and how all that happened. If you were in Horners position and an opportuiny to buy into the team came up simular to Wolff I am not sure you can blame him

[Wouter]

I meant obviously from a management pov listen to him in the RB miracle vid where Max crashed in the observation lap gives a nice insight into how well he organised and kept everything on the same page

.
Yes, I know. I realy think he would be a great TP. Horner was always too but his fault was he wanted
to become the boss by buying the team last year.

.
Still lots of ifs buts and maybes on what and how all that happened. If you were in Horners position and an opportuiny
to buy into the team came up simular to Wolff I am not sure you can blame him

.
The team was not for sale and Horner should have talked about it with everyone at RB GmbH, not only with Yoovidhya.

[izzy]

They're going to dismiss the appeal aren't they, unless there's some new evidence we don't know about. She's said she's going to sue, but she hasn't actually done it yet, and it probably depends if someone is backing her.

If she gets objective legal advice they're going to point out she encouraged him to get to sleep by playing with himself, told him she was in the shower or in pyjamas, wound him up on the plane, offered to wear something he liked, and stayed online with him while he got off thinking about her. They'll bring up the lack of coercion or use of authority in the conversations, and the fairly intimate, caring discussion about mental health care. The 'controlling' argument isn't going to fly at all.

And then, the board have the huge question - who do they replace him with? He is quite weird, I mean the spax lol, but at the same time he's a very rare, special person to have got that team to where it is in every single department. So do they really want to swap him for someone normal? Who?

The process is to appeal the internal Red Bull decision, then if that is unsuccessful to take the case to tribunal, possibly offering mediation as an alternative.

She will have objective legal advice - indeed it's reported that a switch in lawyers was the reason given for taking longer than 5 days to notify Red Bull of her decision to appeal. That objective legal advice has given her confidence to proceed with the claim. None of what you said is relevant to the case and comes across as excusing Horner's sexual harassment. You're also ignoring that he repeatedly turned up at her hotel room uninvited to check up on what she was doing - that was in the discussion about controlling behaviour, and is also unacceptable behaviour for an employer.

I really do not understand why people keep trying to excuse harassment because consent was given at some point. Consent can be taken away and it is upon others to modify their behaviour to match. Surely that is understood by all?

Calling it harassment is begging the question. Every girl wants to have nice legs, and having them admired is a vital part of that. It's a sliding scale and yes he took it too far and had to apologise. But at what point does it get actionable? Not in these chats does it, when she's happily discussing ice massage with him. It's a fair point about turning up at her room, but it's just a prediction, and all the signs are she could tell him to go and he would.

It's shades of grey. Oh who mentioned Shades of Grey? In no 27 . Fact is, she is sexy, and she likes being sexy, up to a point .

[Watto]

.
Yes, I know. I realy think he would be a great TP. Horner was always too but his fault was he wanted
to become the boss by buying the team last year.

.
Still lots of ifs buts and maybes on what and how all that happened. If you were in Horners position and an opportuiny
to buy into the team came up simular to Wolff I am not sure you can blame him

.
The team was not for sale and Horner should have talked about it with everyone at RB GmbH, not only with Yoovidhya.

Yoovidhya could have bough it up with Mateschitz when It all began, he might have had some issues the new management asked for things ge was used to was rejected or they were making decisions that Horner was supposed to, trying to influence things etc Horner has gone to Yoovidhya ask if there was anything he could do, bough up selling the team.

That the team wasn’t fur sale isn’t entirely true either it was long before that I believe it was Dietrich tried to sell 50% of Red Bull Technology to Porsche but was later shut down - larger at the request of Horner and Marko. So a sale wasn’t ever entirely out of the question nor options RBGmbH looked at in the very recent past. Things aren’t always that black and white.

[myurr]

Calling it harassment is begging the question. Every girl wants to have nice legs, and having them admired is a vital part of that. It's a sliding scale and yes he took it too far and had to apologise. But at what point does it get actionable? Not in these chats does it, when she's happily discussing ice massage with him. It's a fair point about turning up at her room, but it's just a prediction, and all the signs are she could tell him to go and he would.

It's shades of grey. Oh who mentioned Shades of Grey? In no 27 . Fact is, she is sexy, and she likes being sexy, up to a point .

The prediction of him turning up at her room was clearly based on past behaviour, past instances, and Horner offers no denial that he behaves like that.

Harassment, in this context, is repeating the same inappropriate behaviour after being asked to stop. She directly asked him on 6 separate occasions to stop.

It doesn't matter that she said she liked the attention in one message, she made it clear in other messages that she no longer wanted the attention. And it is her legal and moral right to expect that unwanted attention to end once she has asked him to stop. When he does not stop, when he does not respect her wishes, that is when it becomes actionable.

When you go to a restaurant and order a dish do you expect that you have to have that same dish every time you go to the restaurant, or do you expect to be able to change your mind? Do you only ever watch one TV channel, or are only allowed to see one film at the cinema? When you get your first car is that a pairing for life? You're never allowed to sell that car and get another? When you have your first kiss, does that confer entitlement to the other person that they can send you sexually suggestive messages for the rest of time?

If you get to change your mind on those things why do you struggle to accept that the victim is allowed to change her mind on whether or not she wants Horner to continue his sexual advances and suggestive behaviour? Why do you continually bring up her liking what Horner was doing in some of those messages, where it's clear in many others that she had changed her mind but was struggling to get Horner to respect that choice?

As Watto says you're coming across as blaming the victim for Horner's behaviour - she likes to feel sexy, so it's okay for Horner to send lurid messages about video calling her in the shower, and going on and on about what she's wearing, asking for pictures so he can masturbate to them. Nothing makes a girl feel sexier than that.

[myurr]

Yoovidhya could have bough it up with Mateschitz when It all began, he might have had some issues the new management asked for things ge was used to was rejected or they were making decisions that Horner was supposed to, trying to influence things etc Horner has gone to Yoovidhya ask if there was anything he could do, bough up selling the team.

That the team wasn’t fur sale isn’t entirely true either it was long before that I believe it was Dietrich tried to sell 50% of Red Bull Technology to Porsche but was later shut down - larger at the request of Horner and Marko. So a sale wasn’t ever entirely out of the question nor options RBGmbH looked at in the very recent past. Things aren’t always that black and white.

You would expect Mateschitz to have preemption rights on any share sale, so Yoovidhya couldn't do an entirely secret deal with Horner. If Y was trying to sell his shares to H, he'd have to offer them for sale to Mateschitz first with a process and timings defined in the shareholder's agreement.

[maxxer]

Just wondering if this topic is going to beat the Honda PU and Software topic in length

[maxxer]

And on that funny note... WhatsApp is the sponsor of Mercedes so i would expect Redbull F1 to use Telegram of Signal instead.

[izzy]

Calling it harassment is begging the question. Every girl wants to have nice legs, and having them admired is a vital part of that. It's a sliding scale and yes he took it too far and had to apologise. But at what point does it get actionable? Not in these chats does it, when she's happily discussing ice massage with him. It's a fair point about turning up at her room, but it's just a prediction, and all the signs are she could tell him to go and he would.

It's shades of grey. Oh who mentioned Shades of Grey? In no 27 . Fact is, she is sexy, and she likes being sexy, up to a point .

The prediction of him turning up at her room was clearly based on past behaviour, past instances, and Horner offers no denial that he behaves like that.

Harassment, in this context, is repeating the same inappropriate behaviour after being asked to stop. She directly asked him on 6 separate occasions to stop.

It doesn't matter that she said she liked the attention in one message, she made it clear in other messages that she no longer wanted the attention. And it is her legal and moral right to expect that unwanted attention to end once she has asked him to stop. When he does not stop, when he does not respect her wishes, that is when it becomes actionable.

When you go to a restaurant and order a dish do you expect that you have to have that same dish every time you go to the restaurant, or do you expect to be able to change your mind? Do you only ever watch one TV channel, or are only allowed to see one film at the cinema? When you get your first car is that a pairing for life? You're never allowed to sell that car and get another? When you have your first kiss, does that confer entitlement to the other person that they can send you sexually suggestive messages for the rest of time?

If you get to change your mind on those things why do you struggle to accept that the victim is allowed to change her mind on whether or not she wants Horner to continue his sexual advances and suggestive behaviour? Why do you continually bring up her liking what Horner was doing in some of those messages, where it's clear in many others that she had changed her mind but was struggling to get Horner to respect that choice?

As Watto says you're coming across as blaming the victim for Horner's behaviour - she likes to feel sexy, so it's okay for Horner to send lurid messages about video calling her in the shower, and going on and on about what she's wearing, asking for pictures so he can masturbate to them. Nothing makes a girl feel sexier than that.

She's not a victim, in these chats. She has plenty of power, and a lot of the chat is about where she sets the limits for him, with the boundaries having been moving apparently. Horner is testing them, but she participates. She doesn't have to tell him she's in the shower does she? She sets him up to react to the idea. Just like she doesn't have to stay chatting while he gets off, which can be very sexy if she fancies him, and very flattering too.

The striking thing about these chats is how human they are, how equal, intimate, trusting, and sexy. The opposition lawyer, if it gets to that, is going to have a fun time with it.

[myurr]

She's not a victim, in these chats. She has plenty of power, and a lot of the chat is about where she sets the limits for him, with the boundaries having been moving apparently. Horner is testing them, but she participates. She doesn't have to tell him she's in the shower does she? She sets him up to react to the idea. Just like she doesn't have to stay chatting while he gets off, which can be very sexy if she fancies him, and very flattering too.

The striking thing about these chats is how human they are, how equal, intimate, trusting, and sexy. The opposition lawyer, if it gets to that, is going to have a fun time with it.

So for you no doesn't mean no...

If you honestly believe that, then why would the victim's lawyers be advising her to pursue the case? Why is Horner upset about these messages, that in your view clear his name, being leaked? Do you think it possible Horner leaked the messages himself in order to clear his name? Why do you think it hasn't worked and the pressure on him is growing?