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I feel very, very strongly about men victimising women, don't try and win by getting personal. That is a disgusting thing to post.myurr wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 15:54So for you no doesn't mean no...izzy wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 15:40She's not a victim, in these chats. She has plenty of power, and a lot of the chat is about where she sets the limits for him, with the boundaries having been moving apparently. Horner is testing them, but she participates. She doesn't have to tell him she's in the shower does she? She sets him up to react to the idea. Just like she doesn't have to stay chatting while he gets off, which can be very sexy if she fancies him, and very flattering too.
The striking thing about these chats is how human they are, how equal, intimate, trusting, and sexy. The opposition lawyer, if it gets to that, is going to have a fun time with it.
If you honestly believe that, then why would the victim's lawyers be advising her to pursue the case? Why is Horner upset about these messages, that in your view clear his name, being leaked? Do you think it possible Horner leaked the messages himself in order to clear his name? Why do you think it hasn't worked and the pressure on him is growing?
You are literally blaming the victim for liking it and using it as an excuse for Horner to continue pestering her. It is blatantly obvious throughout her messages that she does not want Horner to behave in the way he was, yet you post about her liking feeling sexy, and setting him up by saying she's having a shower as if she's begging for him to try and video call her at that time. You outright say she is not a victim.izzy wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 16:07I feel very, very strongly about men victimising women, don't try and win by getting personal. That is a disgusting thing to post.
I only post what I honestly believe, thanks very much. Obviously these are terrible for Horner, his marriage, kids, what people think of him being so ridiculous. I just like him not treating her as junior. And her for standing up for herself and caring for him at the same time.
izzy wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 16:07I feel very, very strongly about men victimising women, don't try and win by getting personal. That is a disgusting thing to post.myurr wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 15:54So for you no doesn't mean no...izzy wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 15:40She's not a victim, in these chats. She has plenty of power, and a lot of the chat is about where she sets the limits for him, with the boundaries having been moving apparently. Horner is testing them, but she participates. She doesn't have to tell him she's in the shower does she? She sets him up to react to the idea. Just like she doesn't have to stay chatting while he gets off, which can be very sexy if she fancies him, and very flattering too.
The striking thing about these chats is how human they are, how equal, intimate, trusting, and sexy. The opposition lawyer, if it gets to that, is going to have a fun time with it.
If you honestly believe that, then why would the victim's lawyers be advising her to pursue the case? Why is Horner upset about these messages, that in your view clear his name, being leaked? Do you think it possible Horner leaked the messages himself in order to clear his name? Why do you think it hasn't worked and the pressure on him is growing?
I only post what I honestly believe, thanks very much. Obviously these are terrible for Horner, his marriage, kids, what people think of him being so ridiculous. I just like him not treating her as junior. And her for standing up for herself and caring for him at the same time.
It may not be your intention but its reading very much on victim blaming vibes here some of it I don't think is too far off textbook.izzy wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 14:58Calling it harassment is begging the question. Every girl wants to have nice legs, and having them admired is a vital part of that. It's a sliding scale and yes he took it too far and had to apologise. But at what point does it get actionable? Not in these chats does it, when she's happily discussing ice massage with him. It's a fair point about turning up at her room, but it's just a prediction, and all the signs are she could tell him to go and he would.myurr wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 12:28The process is to appeal the internal Red Bull decision, then if that is unsuccessful to take the case to tribunal, possibly offering mediation as an alternative.izzy wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 11:59They're going to dismiss the appeal aren't they, unless there's some new evidence we don't know about. She's said she's going to sue, but she hasn't actually done it yet, and it probably depends if someone is backing her.
If she gets objective legal advice they're going to point out she encouraged him to get to sleep by playing with himself, told him she was in the shower or in pyjamas, wound him up on the plane, offered to wear something he liked, and stayed online with him while he got off thinking about her. They'll bring up the lack of coercion or use of authority in the conversations, and the fairly intimate, caring discussion about mental health care. The 'controlling' argument isn't going to fly at all.
And then, the board have the huge question - who do they replace him with? He is quite weird, I mean the spax lol, but at the same time he's a very rare, special person to have got that team to where it is in every single department. So do they really want to swap him for someone normal? Who?
She will have objective legal advice - indeed it's reported that a switch in lawyers was the reason given for taking longer than 5 days to notify Red Bull of her decision to appeal. That objective legal advice has given her confidence to proceed with the claim. None of what you said is relevant to the case and comes across as excusing Horner's sexual harassment. You're also ignoring that he repeatedly turned up at her hotel room uninvited to check up on what she was doing - that was in the discussion about controlling behaviour, and is also unacceptable behaviour for an employer.
I really do not understand why people keep trying to excuse harassment because consent was given at some point. Consent can be taken away and it is upon others to modify their behaviour to match. Surely that is understood by all?
It's shades of grey. Oh who mentioned Shades of Grey? In no 27. Fact is, she is sexy, and she likes being sexy, up to a point .
deal
No but seriously, the thread is an option you can take or not. Imo it matters for what happens to the runaway top team in F1, its leadership that we know matters, and also insights into the extraordinary people who make it the way it is. There is a certain amount of repetition, fair comment People evading inconvenient evidence, as usual, but some evidence is aroundThe messages are a pretty mixed up sample aren't they. Quite a small sample, and posted with malicious intent.Watto wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 16:46It may not be your intention but its reading very much on victim blaming vibes here some of it I don't think is too far off textbook.
Shes allowed to feel and want to be sexy up to a point
I don't think anyone is denying that it was mutual up to a point but somewhere things soured and it fell apart. Who nows for what reasons behind the scenes.
She isn't his junior in so far as shes some receptionist meets and greets people answers a few calls. She can make arangements on his behalf set up meetngs, without having him okay it. He still has control though if he doesn't like the way she does things - sometimes though legitimate grounds not upto his standard he can fire her.easy enough and within the laws of employment. But there are too laws that protect her in these situations obviously for good reason.
The messages for me come across as relatively clear cut harassment.
I've spend a fair bit of this thread questiong if there is something that could have Horner cleared. Were some messages faked? Somthing else that has not been revealed that paints a different picture. who knows my the messages as they are without somthing significant are pretty clear workplace harrasment though at times it was mutual. I don't think this is the angle to take really .
Well very true , and yesterday i wanted to check if in the meantime there was any solid news about the screenshots being fake or true.
I have no doubt this is a very selective leak designed for a purpose.izzy wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 17:17The messages are a pretty mixed up sample aren't they. Quite a small sample, and posted with malicious intent.Watto wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 16:46It may not be your intention but its reading very much on victim blaming vibes here some of it I don't think is too far off textbook.
Shes allowed to feel and want to be sexy up to a point
I don't think anyone is denying that it was mutual up to a point but somewhere things soured and it fell apart. Who nows for what reasons behind the scenes.
She isn't his junior in so far as shes some receptionist meets and greets people answers a few calls. She can make arangements on his behalf set up meetngs, without having him okay it. He still has control though if he doesn't like the way she does things - sometimes though legitimate grounds not upto his standard he can fire her.easy enough and within the laws of employment. But there are too laws that protect her in these situations obviously for good reason.
The messages for me come across as relatively clear cut harassment.
I've spend a fair bit of this thread questiong if there is something that could have Horner cleared. Were some messages faked? Somthing else that has not been revealed that paints a different picture. who knows my the messages as they are without somthing significant are pretty clear workplace harrasment though at times it was mutual. I don't think this is the angle to take really .
But she is not a victim in them. You may have a perspective that sees her as victim but imo that is your well meaning protective male expectation more than what was happening. Yes he's applying pressure all the time, but she just sets limits, and he apologises. He's afraid of her judging him. They both need each other's approval. And she does participate in the sexual side of their relationship, in bits that I think the original leaker missed but the Horner/Red Bull lawyer won't.
The point about power and junior is that he has power over her but in these chats he's not using it. That is THE point, that it's not coercive or controlling. There are ways it's not ideal for her, but she has options and he allows them.
And yes it's gone wrong since, but as far as this evidence goes, she's a participant, being pushed and tested, but not controlled. He asks her for things and if she doesn't want to she just says "nope", end of. Or if she wants him to be thinking of her in pyjamas with nothing underneath, she tells him that exact thing
It's really easy with these to take a snippet and make it mean what you want. There've been people saying he was threatening to sack her, when he wasn't at all. As Joe Saward said it's a very private, intimate conversation and it was a long time before I wanted to look at them all. But when I did, I was completely surprised what it was like. You have to read it all multiple times, very slowly, to see the little bits the leaker didn't want us to notice. It's quite a lot of work, but if you want to you can search X for Horner chats drive, I think it was, and follow the google Drive link and it'll just open in your Drive. Then you can sort them into name orderWatto wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 17:50
I have no doubt this is a very selective leak designed for a purpose.
I've discussed at quite a it something for me isn't added up about the whole thing and don't entirely know what it is - if it is indeed anyting.
Just i really don't think this is is. As some pointed out his line somewhere earlier in this thread I can not recall the exact messages not but were clear cut text book work place harrasment even trying they you were joking wouldn't cut it with uk harrasment laws.
The messages presented will be selective, its the complainants evidence. If Horner wished to produce alternative evidence to support his case or as mitigation then you would assume he would have been free to do so.Watto wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 17:50I have no doubt this is a very selective leak designed for a purpose.izzy wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 17:17The messages are a pretty mixed up sample aren't they. Quite a small sample, and posted with malicious intent.Watto wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 16:46It may not be your intention but its reading very much on victim blaming vibes here some of it I don't think is too far off textbook.
Shes allowed to feel and want to be sexy up to a point
I don't think anyone is denying that it was mutual up to a point but somewhere things soured and it fell apart. Who nows for what reasons behind the scenes.
She isn't his junior in so far as shes some receptionist meets and greets people answers a few calls. She can make arangements on his behalf set up meetngs, without having him okay it. He still has control though if he doesn't like the way she does things - sometimes though legitimate grounds not upto his standard he can fire her.easy enough and within the laws of employment. But there are too laws that protect her in these situations obviously for good reason.
The messages for me come across as relatively clear cut harassment.
I've spend a fair bit of this thread questiong if there is something that could have Horner cleared. Were some messages faked? Somthing else that has not been revealed that paints a different picture. who knows my the messages as they are without somthing significant are pretty clear workplace harrasment though at times it was mutual. I don't think this is the angle to take really .
But she is not a victim in them. You may have a perspective that sees her as victim but imo that is your well meaning protective male expectation more than what was happening. Yes he's applying pressure all the time, but she just sets limits, and he apologises. He's afraid of her judging him. They both need each other's approval. And she does participate in the sexual side of their relationship, in bits that I think the original leaker missed but the Horner/Red Bull lawyer won't.
The point about power and junior is that he has power over her but in these chats he's not using it. That is THE point, that it's not coercive or controlling. There are ways it's not ideal for her, but she has options and he allows them.
And yes it's gone wrong since, but as far as this evidence goes, she's a participant, being pushed and tested, but not controlled. He asks her for things and if she doesn't want to she just says "nope", end of. Or if she wants him to be thinking of her in pyjamas with nothing underneath, she tells him that exact thing
I've discussed at quite a it something for me isn't added up about the whole thing and don't entirely know what it is - if it is indeed anyting.
Just i really don't think this is is. As some pointed out his line somewhere earlier in this thread I can not recall the exact messages not but were clear cut text book work place harrasment even trying they you were joking wouldn't cut it with uk harrasment laws.
I am sure he produced evidence but think also there are plenty of reason this may not have become public particularly when the process is still running the only real though I have - and nothing to really back it up is that some of the messages are fabricated but perhaps not all meaning Horner can't point blank deny they are real. But admit there is very little to back that up. I guess reports that she had been stood down for being dishonest - spreading false rumors does come under uk employment/harassment laws.Mogster wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 20:24The messages presented will be selective, its the complainants evidence. If Horner wished to produce alternative evidence to support his case or as mitigation then you would assume he would have been free to do so.Watto wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 17:50I have no doubt this is a very selective leak designed for a purpose.izzy wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 17:17
The messages are a pretty mixed up sample aren't they. Quite a small sample, and posted with malicious intent.
But she is not a victim in them. You may have a perspective that sees her as victim but imo that is your well meaning protective male expectation more than what was happening. Yes he's applying pressure all the time, but she just sets limits, and he apologises. He's afraid of her judging him. They both need each other's approval. And she does participate in the sexual side of their relationship, in bits that I think the original leaker missed but the Horner/Red Bull lawyer won't.
The point about power and junior is that he has power over her but in these chats he's not using it. That is THE point, that it's not coercive or controlling. There are ways it's not ideal for her, but she has options and he allows them.
And yes it's gone wrong since, but as far as this evidence goes, she's a participant, being pushed and tested, but not controlled. He asks her for things and if she doesn't want to she just says "nope", end of. Or if she wants him to be thinking of her in pyjamas with nothing underneath, she tells him that exact thing
I've discussed at quite a it something for me isn't added up about the whole thing and don't entirely know what it is - if it is indeed anyting.
Just i really don't think this is is. As some pointed out his line somewhere earlier in this thread I can not recall the exact messages not but were clear cut text book work place harrasment even trying they you were joking wouldn't cut it with uk harrasment laws.
Other than the evidence presented by the complainant not being real, and Horner being able to prove this, I don't really see how Horner producing more messages would help his case. He is the complainants employer and as such it is his responsibility to protect his employee from harassment. If the messages are correct then Horner himself is guilty of harassment. I'm not sure how much more there is to say.
I think you miss the point some of it can be fun and games and in a grey ares but there were times it became a pretty clear breach too as for control etc she may have had harassment laws around a senior figure having more responsibility; if she feared she would lose her job if she didn't play along with his advances but there also became times when it really hit a limit then where she was really pushed to her limit.izzy wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 19:48It's really easy with these to take a snippet and make it mean what you want. There've been people saying he was threatening to sack her, when he wasn't at all. As Joe Saward said it's a very private, intimate conversation and it was a long time before I wanted to look at them all. But when I did, I was completely surprised what it was like. You have to read it all multiple times, very slowly, to see the little bits the leaker didn't want us to notice. It's quite a lot of work, but if you want to you can search X for Horner chats drive, I think it was, and follow the google Drive link and it'll just open in your Drive. Then you can sort them into name orderWatto wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 17:50
I have no doubt this is a very selective leak designed for a purpose.
I've discussed at quite a it something for me isn't added up about the whole thing and don't entirely know what it is - if it is indeed anyting.
Just i really don't think this is is. As some pointed out his line somewhere earlier in this thread I can not recall the exact messages not but were clear cut text book work place harrasment even trying they you were joking wouldn't cut it with uk harrasment laws.
But it's a relationship, is the thing, quite conflicted, so yes you can find a bit in there that sounds like harassment, then when you read the whole thing you see she has enough control. Not quite as much as she wants, but nor does he
I see this one as similar to the KC report and Horner without knowing what their advice is I don't think you can argue how confident she could really be was it find a lawyer who would take on your cause because their advice was your case wasn't strong? I doubt thats the reason for a lawyer switch more likely would be the original lawyer was on call if she felt she was being sidelined, call them advice if that was possible if it wasn't then they'll deal with RBR on her behalf. Tje switch likely related to someone who is more adapt at dealing maybe presenting a case to the FIA, maybe dealing with the accusations RBR leveled at her in their letter.myurr wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 12:28The process is to appeal the internal Red Bull decision, then if that is unsuccessful to take the case to tribunal, possibly offering mediation as an alternative.izzy wrote: ↑18 Mar 2024, 11:59They're going to dismiss the appeal aren't they, unless there's some new evidence we don't know about. She's said she's going to sue, but she hasn't actually done it yet, and it probably depends if someone is backing her.
If she gets objective legal advice they're going to point out she encouraged him to get to sleep by playing with himself, told him she was in the shower or in pyjamas, wound him up on the plane, offered to wear something he liked, and stayed online with him while he got off thinking about her. They'll bring up the lack of coercion or use of authority in the conversations, and the fairly intimate, caring discussion about mental health care. The 'controlling' argument isn't going to fly at all.
And then, the board have the huge question - who do they replace him with? He is quite weird, I mean the spax lol, but at the same time he's a very rare, special person to have got that team to where it is in every single department. So do they really want to swap him for someone normal? Who?
She will have objective legal advice - indeed it's reported that a switch in lawyers was the reason given for taking longer than 5 days to notify Red Bull of her decision to appeal. That objective legal advice has given her confidence to proceed with the claim. None of what you said is relevant to the case and comes across as excusing Horner's sexual harassment. You're also ignoring that he repeatedly turned up at her hotel room uninvited to check up on what she was doing - that was in the discussion about controlling behaviour, and is also unacceptable behaviour for an employer.
I really do not understand why people keep trying to excuse harassment because consent was given at some point. Consent can be taken away and it is upon others to modify their behaviour to match. Surely that is understood by all?
. Fact is, she is sexy, and she likes being sexy, up to a point .