2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Luscion]

Toto is attending Suzuka now having originally planned not to- any pointers to a significant upgrade package weekend for them, or am I reading too far between the lines?

Only place i've heard from of Merc bringing upgrades this weekend is Kemal Şengül on twitter, along with Williams, RB, Red bull. Ferrari and Alpine

[cheeRS]

My god the irony is so thick in Ham’s words. He claims to be inspired by their “not giving up”, yet he himself bailed on the team and signed with a rival before this season even started. SMH. What a coward.

“ So every time we take one or two sets forward, it’d take five back. It’s been hugely frustrating, I think, for the engineers.

“But I think what’s been inspiring is that they’ve just not given up. They’re continuing to show up every day and give it their best and that’s all you can ever ask.”

The irony is from you
The team abandoned him because they wanted to replace him with antonelli by not giving him a contract
Anyone in hamilton position would have left before 2025 and go at Ferrari for 2024

You’re assuming that as contract details and future actions within a team are private. In fact it’s looking less and less like Antonelli will be at Merc in 2025.

How is the irony with me when Ham is the one bailing on the team when he had his moment to stay and see through the struggle? Be there for the team that was there for him, handing him a car he could not lose in for almost a decade. Then he says how proud he is of them for staying with it and continuing to fight, while at the same time leaving the team for a rival. What part of that makes me ironic? He’s the one who is abandoning ship when the going gets tough. It’s what a coward does and it’s why I called him out on it.

And no, not everyone in his position would bail. Guys with character and integrity would dig in deeper and try harder for the team that served them so well for so long to see them back to competitiveness. Stick it out and be a hero to help bring them back. Nope. Ham covertly uses an exit clause to grab another guys seat (who quite frankly deserves to stay at Ferrari) to try to force another title. This is next level greed. Disgusting behavior afaic. I hope CS beats CL just to render further how messed up this whole situation is.

Look, Chuck, there is nothing ironic or cowardly about professing admiration for a team that words hard and suffers setbacks, yet continues to persevere. It doesn't make Hamilton a liar because he signed with Ferrari. Just because an employee leaves a job for a dream job doesn't mean everything good they said about it becomes a betrayal. You're judging him as if he should just suffer the rest of his career like a moron.

In fact, his own team boss, Toto Wolff contradicts everything you said, and if anyone has a right to call LH a coward, it would have been him. When asked if he was disappointed that LH left for Ferrari:

“No, not at all,” he insisted.

“I think sportspeople have a limited shelf life when they are at the peak of their performance, peak of their earning power, and that is maybe 10 to 15 years. They’ve got to do it and take that limited amount of time where you want to win as many races and as much as possible.

“And that’s why I understand that he says ‘I gotta go a different path, I need to reinvent myself.’


^^^ This is what Chuck needs to understand. LH can't wait until he's 50 for Merc to get it together. He's already won 7 WDC, he's not interested working until he's 50 to get #8 (again). George or Antonelli, they can wait, they can grind for years to get their WDC. This is the whole reason why drivers move around WAY more than any other profession in F1.

Besides, no one respectable or reasonable would turn down an offer to drive for Ferrari when their own team is struggling. Max would jump in an instant if he were in LH's shoes.

“I see the positives because our years were so great and we really have a strong bond. And in the same way, we are able to separate in wishing each other really all the best."

[chrisc90]

The toto and Lewis relationship confuses me.

Wasn’t it only last week that toto was saying he best get used to how a mercedes rear wing looks because that’s what he will be seeing next year?

Makes little sense. Too many false promises from toto this era

[Vanja #66]

Seeing that W15 is bottoming and snap oversteers in the high-speed section at Jeddah it means that they lack understanding about at least these areas:

- how to seal the floor edges (or should I say Venturi tunnels) when the car is in an unsettled state, as Andrea Stela was saying
- how to design/setup a downforce limiter/staller switch in order to get rid of the peak downforce when the proposing effect is occurring (maybe the steps/kicks in the floor are responsible for that thing?)
- how to design a stiff suspension and damper setup that need to be enough compliant to run smoothly over the bumps and kerbs and not unsettle the car (double rate suspension system?)

On the same note could someone with better knowledge enlighten me on how they setup the car in qualy to not proposing and wearing the plank, knowing that at the beginning of the race is the heaviest in the whole weekend, but furthermore having a lower ride height to generate enough downforce levels not to step out the rear of the car, something that W15 is facing at the present?

Floor edges are always "sealed" since the floor edge vortex always spins. It's not about Venturi tunnels, it's about diffuser flow and keeping it clean in all conditions and oversteer snaps in high speed suggest this is exactly the issue with Merc, since the start of 2022 basically.

Points 2 and 3 are overlapping. Their suspension is just fine in my view, if they start tweaking around too much they will drop out of tyre performance window. They lack the understanding how to design the floor which has efficient aero mechanism that does not induce bouncing even when the floor is really low and speeds are very high. It's the opposite of stalling the floor, they need to find a way not to upset it when they increase the speed and get low and purposefully allow the flow structures to be altered to keep the flow stable. And then keep all the flow stable while the car is cornering and going over bumps and kerbs. In my view, the most important aspect there are floor strake vortices and playing around with the amount of flow they are fed with in various conditions on track

[Waz]

Reading this thread (the car stuff) is very "Ground Hog Day". Very much the same being written over the last 3 years.

Having said that, this is also the only team thread where you don't read about major management restructuring. Even Red Bull have had a restructure or 2 over the last few years to shuffle about senior engineers to replace lost staff.

[PlatinumZealot]

The toto and Lewis relationship confuses me.

Wasn’t it only last week that toto was saying he best get used to how a mercedes rear wing looks because that’s what he will be seeing next year?

Makes little sense. Too many false promises from toto this era

You say the Toto Wolff and Lewis relationship confuses you because Toto set a goal to beat Lewis in 2025 who would then be his future competitor? What's so nonsenical about that?

Then you say Toto is making a false promise about the competitiveness of the 2025 Mercedes. How do you know the promise will be false? He made no sky high promises in 2022 nor 2023 laste time I checked. And beating Ferrari in 2025 is not so far fetched as you might think.

[r85]

The toto and Lewis relationship confuses me.

Wasn’t it only last week that toto was saying he best get used to how a mercedes rear wing looks because that’s what he will be seeing next year?

Makes little sense. Too many false promises from toto this era

I'm pretty sure it was friendly banter.

[Vanja #66]

And beating Ferrari in 2025 is not so far fetched as you might think.

The only way Hamilton will be looking at Mercedes rear wing next year is if gets to lap them. Right now Ferrari (and McLaren) are on an upward trajectory and arguably closer to RB than Mercedes is to the two of them. With Mercedes being on a downward trajectory, that gap is only getting bigger...

[PlatinumZealot]

McLaren were absolute shiite in early 2023 remember? Look where they are now after understanding the ground effect better. It's simply too early to write off Mercedes. Lets say something about them in Bahrain 2025.

[atanatizante]

Seeing that W15 is bottoming and snap oversteers in the high-speed section at Jeddah it means that they lack understanding about at least these areas:

- how to seal the floor edges (or should I say Venturi tunnels) when the car is in an unsettled state, as Andrea Stela was saying
- how to design/setup a downforce limiter/staller switch in order to get rid of the peak downforce when the proposing effect is occurring (maybe the steps/kicks in the floor are responsible for that thing?)
- how to design a stiff suspension and damper setup that need to be enough compliant to run smoothly over the bumps and kerbs and not unsettle the car (double rate suspension system?)

On the same note could someone with better knowledge enlighten me on how they setup the car in qualy to not proposing and wearing the plank, knowing that at the beginning of the race is the heaviest in the whole weekend, but furthermore having a lower ride height to generate enough downforce levels not to step out the rear of the car, something that W15 is facing at the present?

Floor edges are always "sealed" since the floor edge vortex always spins. It's not about Venturi tunnels, it's about diffuser flow and keeping it clean in all conditions and oversteer snaps in high speed suggest this is exactly the issue with Merc, since the start of 2022 basically.

Points 2 and 3 are overlapping. Their suspension is just fine in my view, if they start tweaking around too much they will drop out of tyre performance window. They lack the understanding how to design the floor which has efficient aero mechanism that does not induce bouncing even when the floor is really low and speeds are very high. It's the opposite of stalling the floor, they need to find a way not to upset it when they increase the speed and get low and purposefully allow the flow structures to be altered to keep the flow stable. And then keep all the flow stable while the car is cornering and going over bumps and kerbs. In my view, the most important aspect there are floor strake vortices and playing around with the amount of flow they are fed with in various conditions on track

Thank you, Vanja for giving us your thoughts about this matter.

All I was doing was putting together what Newey said about the need to have a stable platform (hence the fact that he said it was focused mainly on the suspension) and what former F1 engineer Gary Anderson said about their lack of knowledge regarding floor stalling when the downforce is at the peak and induce the porpoising effect ...

In addition, many other voices on the paddock said there must be a deeper integration between the floor and the suspension for these ground-effect cars to have the best results and not be treated like different areas of the car ...

[Venturiation]

good on hamilton leaving this toxic team that hates him

[j_ste]

good on hamilton leaving this toxic team that hates him

Ambassador what?

[j_ste]

McLaren were absolute shiite in early 2023 remember? Look where they are now after understanding the ground effect better. It's simply too early to write off Mercedes. Lets say something about them in Bahrain 2025.

Thats the problem. McLaren understood from before the season started last year. They were just late in handing in their homework. As soon as they brought their updated package...they were off!

Mercedes havent even started their homework and are still in the library. But the lights are off and they cant find the correct book

[PlatinumZealot]

They have a six month time-line to get it right. The rest of the car might be a rocketship and just waiting on that one teeny bit of a break-through to unlock it's
Championship winning potential.

[Cs98]

good on hamilton leaving this toxic team that hates him

Come on now, don't be like that Let's get the timeline straight, Hamilton left and only after did Verstappen become a legitimate option post Horner drama. That being said, Toto would be absolutely foolish not to offer Verstappen the world with a cherry on top. This is a no-brainer for Mercedes.