2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Dunlay]

Dietrich Mateschitz had éverything to do with it though. Hebhas build the redbull drinks company to be a commercial succes and the redbull racing team is entirely his doing.

To me it is strange that the yoovidyha’s (onboarded by Horner) are suddenly boss (based on the 51%). It makes it an entirely different team looking at it one way.

Why are the other redbull marketing budget build sports teams not suddenly experiencing the same, Redbull Salzburg and Leipzig football teams? Perhaps as they are not wholly owned?

It is all just very unfortunate, a good and stable team, Dietrich passes away and maybe the construction wasn’t secure enough but the team is now all but.

Completely agreed that Red Bull Racing is vision of DM. Now that he is gone, who should claim the ownership if not Yoovidhya? In all these years, we didn't hear a single soul from GmbH making any contribution to the racibg business. The guy who drove DM's vision and brought to life his envisaged success, is Horner. He built this entire team, infrastructure and fought political battles with FOA/ FOM/Liberty et al to get things done. He also built a strong relationship with Bernie that served Red Bull Racing well. No other person deserves the control of RBR as much as Horner and if Yoovidhya is standing with Horner and backing him, he is just continuing what DM was doing.

[Wouter]

Dietrich Mateschitz had éverything to do with it though. Hebhas build the redbull drinks company to be a commercial succes and the redbull racing team is entirely his doing.

To me it is strange that the yoovidyha’s (onboarded by Horner) are suddenly boss (based on the 51%). It makes it an entirely different team looking at it one way.

Why are the other redbull marketing budget build sports teams not suddenly experiencing the same, Redbull Salzburg and Leipzig football teams? Perhaps as they are not wholly owned?

It is all just very unfortunate, a good and stable team, Dietrich passes away and maybe the construction wasn’t secure enough but the team is now all but.
.

Completely agreed that Red Bull Racing is vision of DM. Now that he is gone, who should claim the ownership if not Yoovidhya? In all these years, we didn't hear a single soul from GmbH making any contribution to the racibg business. The guy who drove DM's vision and brought to life his envisaged success, is Horner. He built this entire team, infrastructure and fought political battles with FOA/ FOM/Liberty et al to get things done. He also built a strong relationship with Bernie that served Red Bull Racing well. No other person deserves the control of RBR as much as Horner and if Yoovidhya is standing with Horner and backing him, he is just continuing what DM was doing.

.
Then tell me why everyone with a high position at RBR believes that there must be peace in the team, otherwise they will leave!
Who is causing unrest and why? Could it possibly be the same Horner? What do you think?

[Dunlay]

Dietrich Mateschitz had éverything to do with it though. Hebhas build the redbull drinks company to be a commercial succes and the redbull racing team is entirely his doing.

To me it is strange that the yoovidyha’s (onboarded by Horner) are suddenly boss (based on the 51%). It makes it an entirely different team looking at it one way.

Why are the other redbull marketing budget build sports teams not suddenly experiencing the same, Redbull Salzburg and Leipzig football teams? Perhaps as they are not wholly owned?

It is all just very unfortunate, a good and stable team, Dietrich passes away and maybe the construction wasn’t secure enough but the team is now all but.
.

Completely agreed that Red Bull Racing is vision of DM. Now that he is gone, who should claim the ownership if not Yoovidhya? In all these years, we didn't hear a single soul from GmbH making any contribution to the racibg business. The guy who drove DM's vision and brought to life his envisaged success, is Horner. He built this entire team, infrastructure and fought political battles with FOA/ FOM/Liberty et al to get things done. He also built a strong relationship with Bernie that served Red Bull Racing well. No other person deserves the control of RBR as much as Horner and if Yoovidhya is standing with Horner and backing him, he is just continuing what DM was doing.

.
Then tell me why everyone with a high position at RBR believes that there must be peace in the team, otherwise they will leave!
Who is causing unrest and why? Could it possibly be the same Horner? What do you think?

My hunch
ON
There was a story reported a while ago. With DM gone, Yoovidhya wants to spin off Red Bull Racing as a seperate entity outside of Red Bull GmbH and Horner has prepared the blue print for it, potentially also becoming a partner. Yoovidhya also wants the headquarters shifted to Dubai from Austria and Horner becoming CEO of entire Red Bull Group, which means Oliver, Marko and others in Austria losing jobs.

These plans have lead to internal power struggle and knives are out between Austria folks, including Marko, Oliver etc., and Horner backed by Yoovidhya, which is the primary motivator behind creating the Hornergate. As Verstappens are on Marko's side, they are having a say in safeguarding Marko, who otherwise would have gone by now for allegedly leaking the chats.

As far Newey is concerned, is this political struggle that is affecting him or are there other reasons like him not being fully in driver's seat on the designing side, nobody knows.

The resistance from Austria to Yoovidhya's grand plans is where this whole fiasco is stemming from. "Peace" for Austria, meaning Yoovidhya to drop his plans and maintain status quo of keeping things as is. I doubt that is going to happen as it's too much for the ego of a billionaire to bend.
OFF

[Seanspeed]

None of this is mutually exclusive though. Peter Promodrou is talented. Adrian Newey is talented. Both of them require the correct environment. Mclaren was never appropriate until more recently. Mercedes did not let customer teams use high power modes in 2014 so there's no point even discussing Mclaren of 2014. From 2015 Honda was a disaster. Also not Peter's fault. Mclaren also didn't have their own windtunnel until last year and were running out of money around COVID. There's a number of reasons why Mclaren has been struggling that would have also caused Newey to struggle if he went there, and eventually leave for a second time.

The same thing will apply with Wache and Balbo. Brilliant minds, but ultimately the team that you make your home matters to. There's no guarantee that any of these people will be able to replicate their success at Red Bull in another team. What they created at Red Bull was ultimately quite unique. The sport is ultimately poorer when they have broken apart.

The Promodrou Mclarens weren't simply let down by engines, though. They were up against a Red Bull that was similarly suffering from lackluster engines, but the Red Bull was almost always WAY more competitive.

I'm not saying Peter was some hack, just that the clear mind behind the Red Bull success was so very obviously Adrian Newey.

I think you are still missing the point here. It's like asking the chef to cook with utensils that are made from chocolate vs ones that are made out of metal.

There's a reason that Adrian Newey stayed at Red Bull for 18 years and would have continued for many more if not for reasons that appear to be of a personal nature. Adrian Newey has had multiple advances from Ferrari, Mercedes, Mclaren and he turned them down every single time. Why? There's your answer.

The drama at Red Bull has forced him to pursue second pickings if he wants to stay in F1. It is rather unfortunate that it came to this but I can't blame him. From what is reported, the position is simply untenable.

You're arguing something very different from what we were actually discussing. :/

And we have no idea why Newey didn't want to switch teams. You can speculate, but that's all it is. Also, this idea that top designers/engineers only ever want to work with the 'already best' team possible is very much not true.

[GoranF1]

How long do you think before RB will stop winning after Newey is gone?
I think in year 1 they can still win championship in year 2 few races by year 3 they will be Aston/Mclaren level.
They have good engineers yes but Peter Prodrumou and Dan Fallows couldn't make theirs teams champions on their own after being Newey students for years.

[Vanja #66]

Exactly, I find that quite disappointing from Verstappen and Marko. I mean why would Marko even do such a thing, certainly not for the best of the team. Just to protect himself.

It undermines the strategic decision that Horner and Marko took to pay up big and secure Verstappen to bridge the transition period from Honda engines to RBPT, which I thought was such a wise decision at the time. Even in the case of initial under performance of the engine, Verstappen's performance would ensure that Red Bull wouldn't entirely fall off a cliff in the WDC.

And in Verstappens case he knew what he signed up for with RBPT always being a challenging prospect for Red Bull certainly on a short term basis. Since he backed Marko, Marko is now in his dept and will move aside if Verstappen requires him to. To use that to look around at Mercedes and Aston Martin betrays the trust and is in my opinion quite disloyal to the people at Red Bull and Red Bull Powertrains.

Even if Marko were to retire in say 1-3 year time. Newey to go elsewhere or retire himself. There is still a damn strong team of people and whatever anyone thinks of Christian you can bet he will do whatever it takes to make the RBPT project successfull. If Red Bull can keep Wache and the other top engineers then there is plenty of reason for them to continue to be at or near the front.

Verstappen said in Abu Dhabi that he could see himself race for Red Bull to the end of his career. Guess he really just ment Helmut Marko.

We don't know all the details of course. Some suggest Marko is not aligned with Horner and Thais since their vision is not what late DM wanted. DM had himself an open control over Red Bull group and was trusted by Thais. He wanted to transfer this to his son, but Thais refused and on paper and by law they remain in control.

DM wanted RBR to be a separate identity and under no operational control from the RB Group since this slows things down. Thais now want to have more control and full overview and they have an ally in Horner. On the other hand, Horner's life work is RBR and I don't see him doing anything that might hurt RBR long term.

Whether people in the team and here like it or not, Thais have every right to do what they want with the team and Horner has every right to make himself available and aligned with majority owners. DM's son has every right to try and negotiate better terms for himself. No one has the right to expose internal affairs to local news media in a bid to oust the TP so they could take control, least of all Jos as a third party not directly involved with the team. I've always seen Marko as extremely toxic person who justifies this with "honesty", so I'm not surprised someone on his side made this whole internal thing public and thus made the problem far bigger than it ever had to be.

[Wouter]

Completely agreed that Red Bull Racing is vision of DM. Now that he is gone, who should claim the ownership if not Yoovidhya? In all these years, we didn't hear a single soul from GmbH making any contribution to the racibg business. The guy who drove DM's vision and brought to life his envisaged success, is Horner. He built this entire team, infrastructure and fought political battles with FOA/ FOM/Liberty et al to get things done. He also built a strong relationship with Bernie that served Red Bull Racing well. No other person deserves the control of RBR as much as Horner and if Yoovidhya is standing with Horner and backing him, he is just continuing what DM was doing.

.
Then tell me why everyone with a high position at RBR believes that there must be peace in the team, otherwise they will leave!
Who is causing unrest and why? Could it possibly be the same Horner? What do you think?

My hunch
ON
There was a story reported a while ago. With DM gone, Yoovidhya wants to spin off Red Bull Racing as a seperate entity outside of Red Bull GmbH and Horner has prepared the blue print for it, potentially also becoming a partner. Yoovidhya also wants the headquarters shifted to Dubai from Austria and Horner becoming CEO of entire Red Bull Group, which means Oliver, Marko and others in Austria losing jobs.

These plans have lead to internal power struggle and knives are out between Austria folks, including Marko, Oliver etc., and Horner backed by Yoovidhya, which is the primary motivator behind creating the Hornergate. As Verstappens are on Marko's side, they are having a say in safeguarding Marko, who otherwise would have gone by now for allegedly leaking the chats.

As far Newey is concerned, is this political struggle that is affecting him or are there other reasons like him not being fully in driver's seat on the designing side, nobody knows.

The resistance from Austria to Yoovidhya's grand plans is where this whole fiasco is stemming from. "Peace" for Austria, meaning Yoovidhya to drop his plans and maintain status quo of keeping things as is. I doubt that is going to happen as it's too much for the ego of a billionaire to bend.
OFF

.
I completely agree that Horner and Yoovidhya are the instigators of the unrest. No one knows the details, but it is known
that they both want to take over power. If that had not happened, RBR would still have been able to win the championships
at least over the next two years.
Because of these two power-hungry men RBR loses its most important people and nothing remains of the successful team.
They probably didn't expect that. How two people can destroy such a successful team is unimaginable.
It's a good thing that Dietrich Mateschitz doesn't experience/see that anymore. This is the way how Horner thanks him .


I hope that Horner's PA, who is also Newey's PA, is/will be told that her appeal is not being honored, because then she will go
to the labor court and then everyone can hear what Horner is really like!
It wouldn't surprise me if Newey knew exactly what Horner wanted from his PA. She must have told Newey things in confidence
(because she was afraid of losing her job). That is not a sustainable and healthy environment to work in and Horner is guilty of that too!!

[Sieper]

It is quite clear what you think Vanja. But I don’t agree that Horner has every right to do what he did. He actively sought the yoovidhya’s to gain control over the racing team.

That team was built upon the vision of Dietrich. Horner was just one of the key players to make it happen. The general manager. Not the boss of the team.

I think the legal construction 49-51 was very unfortunate. It was thought up when redbull GmbH just started but it now allows (with the passing of Dieter) for the yoovidya’s to take full control.

Everyone understands Horners motivation, but is it really best to stop with Honda, don’t start with Porsche and potentially loose other key players in the team?

Horner has not built the team alone, he managed it. But Honda, Newey, Marko, Max all played a big role in making it the succes it is just as well.

[Wouter]

On the other hand, Horner's life work is RBR and I don't see him doing anything that might hurt RBR long term.

.
I suggest you go to Specsavers because you've missed a lot!!

Important people and their 3 times WDC Max are leaving the team because Horner doing great!
.

I've always seen Marko as extremely toxic person who justifies this with "honesty", so I'm not surprised someone on his side
made this whole internal thing public and thus made the problem far bigger than it ever had to be.

.
Marko toxic??? You must really hate Helmut Marko or as I said: "I suggest you go to Specsavers because you've missed a lot!!"
If there is one person toxic it is Horner! That is why the most important people are leaving the team.

[CaribouBread]

This is one of those scenarios where everyone acting *rationally* in their individual self interest leads to overall *irrational* outcomes. There is basically no point in combing over individual actors and their decisions because their actions can be completely justified from their perspective.

[Sieper]

Well said caribou, for the most part you are likely right. I do think that Horner has been scheming, had he not done that all interests would have still aligned.

It’s just a shame and it showcases really well, how fragile succes is. It is all a balance.

[Henk_v]

Maybe it is pointless to look for one reason why AN left.

As far as I have understood, he had a say in concept direction and suspension.

He delivered his masterpiece in suspention and by nog the concept direction of the '25 car mus have been decided.

Now with a New boat, tempting retirement he must decide if he wants to play another round of regulations.

He is obviously not a fan of the '26 regulations and a bit in discomfort about the politics.

These things add up together I think.

You also can not exclude how he looks at his own and partners health, or other private matters.
He's very wealthy and sacrificed a lot of his private life. You need a good reason to keep working and maybe there is nothing fundamentaly wrong, but he just does not find something really awesome to keep sacrificing.

That said, it is still a roumour. Nothing confirmed. And this roumour might be a political device.

I could speculate that this roumour might be to shake the verstappen tree and see if anything moves....

[Vanja #66]

I suggest you go to Specsavers because you've missed a lot!!
Important people and their 3 times WDC Max are leaving the team because Horner doing great!

Marko toxic??? You must really hate Helmut Marko or as I said: "I suggest you go to Specsavers because you've missed a lot!!"
If there is one person toxic it is Horner! That is why the most important people are leaving the team.

To fully understand things, one must first approach them calmly, without emotions and be open minded

This is one of those scenarios where everyone acting *rationally* in their individual self interest leads to overall *irrational* outcomes. There is basically no point in combing over individual actors and their decisions because their actions can be completely justified from their perspective.

One side went fully public with an internal process, which ended up hurting the team and the whole RB group and the damage keeps being done. What exactly did Horner publicly do to hurt RBR and RB Group?

[dialtone]

How are people here downplaying AN?

Since 2022 we all agreed that suspension design and its interaction with the floor and porpoising was key to RBR dominance.

Even pre TD39 Ferrari was spending time figuring porpoising out with many floor variations without success.

AN put RBR in a position where they could hunt performance from day 1, do you folks even remember pre season 2022? When the new suspension and sidepods arrived that RBR gained 1s per lap in performance.

To say AN plays no role is so disrespectful, especially when it’s not clear yet wether he’s retiring or going to Ferrari. Why besmirch his name and contribution already?

I do not understand some people here.

[f1isgood]

I suggest you go to Specsavers because you've missed a lot!!
Important people and their 3 times WDC Max are leaving the team because Horner doing great!

Marko toxic??? You must really hate Helmut Marko or as I said: "I suggest you go to Specsavers because you've missed a lot!!"
If there is one person toxic it is Horner! That is why the most important people are leaving the team.

To fully understand things, one must first approach them calmly, without emotions and be open minded

This is one of those scenarios where everyone acting *rationally* in their individual self interest leads to overall *irrational* outcomes. There is basically no point in combing over individual actors and their decisions because their actions can be completely justified from their perspective.

One side went fully public with an internal process, which ended up hurting the team and the whole RB group and the damage keeps being done. What exactly did Horner publicly do to hurt RBR and RB Group?

Spot on.