2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[f1isgood]

Publicly crying to the media about wanting peace is not the way to have it.
I'm not on the side with Horner on this, but don't have to pretend that the other side is innocent.
If they really wanted peace, they would discuss this behind closed doors.

Agree this stuff is better handled behind closed doorts.

Jos could easily say nothing or just say Max is enjoying a dominate RB20 having the fastest car as Marko has recently and if there is an issue he had deal with it through the team privately

Only creates more speculation when i I think Neweys departure on its own would raise questions on what Max does

Jos had no business nosing in Red Bull matters. But true to his personality, he went out barking like a stray dog, calling for Horner's head. We still do not have clarity on who leaked the chsts, which was alleged to be Marko and then suddenly, Max jumps in to save Matko who was almost fired. So they together played it dirty and then kept asking for "peace". Not sure what "peace" meant here. I don't think the feud is over. Now that their, supposedly, the most important asset is out, Horner would be in "nothing to lose anymore" mode. Red Bull can survive, without success for a while, but not Max. So, either he should convince his father and Marko to stay quiet or look another team that can help him win. He would be the biggest loser if the team goes down in performance.

I have a strong feeling Verstappen will end up driving for Mercedes who won't make a good car, all because of Jos and Helmut, and his success will end after Red Bull. I can already see the writing on the wall. Mercedes are still a team that are clueless in this era. Ferrari are far more competent, and Hamilotn might yet get a few more wins before retiring.

[Cs98]

Publicly crying to the media about wanting peace is not the way to have it.
I'm not on the side with Horner on this, but don't have to pretend that the other side is innocent.
If they really wanted peace, they would discuss this behind closed doors.

Jos may be an unsavoury character but there's no equivalence when it comes to him and Horner on this. Horner's actions and the lack of accountability for those actions is what got us here.

I am sorry but for what it's worth don't even know the full story yet. This is your perception of events. Jos has a history that was detailed out just today and it doesn't matter what Horner has or hasn't done. What Jos is doing is incorrect by running his mouth and peddling toxicity.

And if we tolerated back room cover-ups "behind closed doors" we would never know the full story. But the evidence leaked and we could form our own opinions.

Jos has a history that was detailed out just today and it doesn't matter what Horner has or hasn't done.

What an incredible statement. Jos' history has nothing to do with the controversy at hand, Horner's actions are foundational to the controversy but it "doesn't matter what Horner has or hasn't done". I understand that it's easier to try to turn this into a debate about Jos' character as opposed to actually defending Horner, but it's not a real argument, it's deflection.

[mwillems]

he was going to be in gardening leave till he was 200 years old

I honestly half expected we will get to read how RB can outright ban him to join another F1 team in perpetuity...

I wonder how many Max fans watched F1 when Newey was transferring from Macca to RB, how it went, how much trouble it was for both parties and why Newey deserves to be treated with highest honours after everything he helped RB with. The only fair thing now would be to release him asap and forego any gardening leave, but maybe RB catering is even better this year

They gave Marshall a good send off and didn't try to keep him on Gardening leave for an unreasonable amount of time. About 9 months, but there does appear to have been some deal between the teams to make that happen.

I suspect Horner might take the approach that Newey knows the rules about sabbaticals. His immediate transfer to another team makes his abilities a more immediate threat to Red Bull. It also makes sense to prevent him working on anyone's 26 car. If Red Bull can get a lead on the '26 design then they will be in a good place to keep pushing forward sans Newey. Letting Newey design someone's '26 car would be crazy for RB to do, to be honest. Even though I think he has earned the right to do what he pleases.

[Vanja #66]

I am really surprised at people still honestly believing it all started between Horner and a female employee and now "everyone" in the team wants him out because someone filed an internal complaint. It's completely irrelevant already, he was cleared of wrongdoing.

Public character assassination is neither the start, nor the end of anything, it's merely a step towards imposing pressure on subject at hand. With Jos leaking out inital details, the show started with an idea of forcing Horner out via public pressure, either directly or via Thais being forced to distance him from Red Bull brands. With Horner out, Mateschitz jr, CEO and Marko would like to take control over RBR and keep it away from Thais.

The only problem with all that is legal problem. DM had a carte blanche in his deal with Thais decades ago, but this does not transfer to Jr, nor does it transfer control over RBR to Jr. Thais have legal and moral right to do whatever they want with RBR, they can sell it or burn the whole facility down if they want. Of course they won't, but they do want a TP that answers to them as legal owners and execute their vision for the team.

Horner spent 20 years building this highly successful team and is nowhere near retirement. He's regarded as one the best TPs in F1 history, so why would he steer the team in wrong direction just because a new boss wants it? He wouldn't and new boss does not want him to, so we can rule this out.

I have no idea what kind of aspiration the other side has, but it was clear in Jeddah the conflict starts at the top. In any case, you can't preach peace and then start several fires to attempt an outright coup. I strongly suspected the state of 2026 PU is not satisfactory for Verstappen's team (whoever is there) and this is their right. What's not right is going behind TP's back to introduce special clauses to a contract. What is this TP now supposed to do, impose dictatorship and force everyone who is not loyal to him out? Right, that move has a very successful track record in F1

If you preach something, lead by example. It's that simple.

[Sieper]

It goes way further than that. I have typed this down several times already. This whole team, no the whole company was built by Dietrich Mateschitz. He decided to go for (ultra)sports as marketing tool, he put his trust in Marko and Marko hired Horner to lead/manage the team. Now that Dietrich passed Horner, imho in a sneaky way, went over the head of the redbull company, directly to yoovidhya, who technically has the power now with his 51% and no longer the company in the hands of Dietrich. Horner took the power. This goes very much against redbull GmbH and certainly Marko. I can understand why he did this, but I don’t think it is completely right. It is right for him.

[Vanja #66]

He previously answered to DM as CEO and 49% owner because Thais agreed DM will be in charge. Now Yoovidhya Jr is in charge and Horner wants to make RBR above other RB Sports projects, and rightly so. Obviosly, this is aligned with the new boss and majority owner, otherwise Horner would be out long ago.

Vasseur answers directly to Elkann as Exor and Ferrari Chairman, Vigna as Ferrari CEO is no longer directly in charge. It's how things should be, F1 teams are much more than profitable sports clubs

[Seanspeed]

I am really surprised at people still honestly believing it all started between Horner and a female employee and now "everyone" in the team wants him out because someone filed an internal complaint. It's completely irrelevant already, he was cleared of wrongdoing.

You cant really be that naive, right?

They investigated themselves and found themselves innocent of wrongdoing. That's hardly some conclusive outcome that immediately makes everything go away, and the treatment of the employee afterwards really paints a poor picture of the handling of the whole situation.

This is like saying that US police officers that are 'absolved' of doing anything wrong after internal investigations cleared them must be declared perfectly innocent when we have clear as day body cam footage of them doing something awful.

[Cs98]

It goes way further than that. I have typed this down several times already. This whole team, no the whole company was built by Dietrich Mateschitz. He decided to go for (ultra)sports as marketing tool, he put his trust in Marko and Marko hired Horner to lead/manage the team. Now that Dietrich passed Horner, imho in a sneaky way, went over the head of the redbull company, directly to yoovidhya, who technically has the power now with his 51% and no longer the company in the hands of Dietrich. Horner took the power. This goes very much against redbull GmbH and certainly Marko. I can understand why he did this, but I don’t think it is completely right. It is right for him.

Dietrich was not just the owner but also the anchor of the entire organisation, the person that everyone was accountable to, no matter who you were in the team. Horner has undoubtedly been a brilliant leader from an operational standpoint but not every man is capable of leading without being accountable to someone higher up the food chain. Without Dietrich and with a soft Thai leadership Horner has effectively been unleashed to do whatever he wants. The whole attempted takeover and PA scandal is such a cliché when you really think about it, the destructive and selfish side of a man who is no longer accountable to anything but his own conscience. It would have never happened if Dietrich was still around, his mere presence would have straightened Horner out.

[Vanja #66]

You cant really be that naive, right?

They investigated themselves and found themselves innocent of wrongdoing. That's hardly some conclusive outcome that immediately makes everything go away, and the treatment of the employee afterwards really paints a poor picture of the handling of the whole situation.

This is like saying that US police officers that are 'absolved' of doing anything wrong after internal investigations cleared them must be declared perfectly innocent when we have clear as day body cam footage of them doing something awful.

Comparing private company with a private attorney to a federal administration is beyond apples and oranges

The attorney in question has to comply to ethical standards during these proceedings. Not because they're paid to do it, but because any additional investigation having very different conclusion would mean game over for said attorney and the company they work for. At best, you can soften some minor details, but you can't completely twist the narrative of the case.

On the other hand, who's paying the top-rated legal office to represent the employee in their legal appeal, or was it outright lawsuit? Reported to be way beyond said employee's pay grade

[Seanspeed]

You cant really be that naive, right?

They investigated themselves and found themselves innocent of wrongdoing. That's hardly some conclusive outcome that immediately makes everything go away, and the treatment of the employee afterwards really paints a poor picture of the handling of the whole situation.

This is like saying that US police officers that are 'absolved' of doing anything wrong after internal investigations cleared them must be declared perfectly innocent when we have clear as day body cam footage of them doing something awful.

Comparing private company with a private attorney to a federal administration is beyond apples and oranges

The attorney in question has to comply to ethical standards during these proceedings. Not because they're paid to do it, but because any additional investigation having very different conclusion would mean game over for said attorney and the company they work for. At best, you can soften some minor details, but you can't completely twist the narrative of the case.

On the other hand, who's paying the top-rated legal office to represent the employee in their legal appeal, or was it outright lawsuit? Reported to be way beyond said employee's pay grade

Police are not federal employees in the US.

But anyways, you're going to tell yourself what you need to. The idea that Horner was completely absolved of guilt and nothing more can be said of it is laughable to many people given it was an internal investigation and the cloud of questionable stuff surrounding it. We may never know the full truth of the situation, but acting like it couldn't possibly be a source of any tensions because this inside investigation said he was innocent is a terrible argument.

[Vanja #66]

Police are not federal employees in the US.

But anyways, you're going to tell yourself what you need to. The idea that Horner was completely absolved of guilt and nothing more can be said of it is laughable to many people given it was an internal investigation and the cloud of questionable stuff surrounding it. We may never know the full truth of the situation, but acting like it couldn't possibly be a source of any tensions because this inside investigation said he was innocent is a terrible argument.

Think you should read my post you first replied to again, but don't stop after the first section just because you don't agree to it

[Cs98]

You cant really be that naive, right?

They investigated themselves and found themselves innocent of wrongdoing. That's hardly some conclusive outcome that immediately makes everything go away, and the treatment of the employee afterwards really paints a poor picture of the handling of the whole situation.

This is like saying that US police officers that are 'absolved' of doing anything wrong after internal investigations cleared them must be declared perfectly innocent when we have clear as day body cam footage of them doing something awful.

Comparing private company with a private attorney to a federal administration is beyond apples and oranges

The attorney in question has to comply to ethical standards during these proceedings. Not because they're paid to do it, but because any additional investigation having very different conclusion would mean game over for said attorney and the company they work for. At best, you can soften some minor details, but you can't completely twist the narrative of the case.

On the other hand, who's paying the top-rated legal office to represent the employee in their legal appeal, or was it outright lawsuit? Reported to be way beyond said employee's pay grade

I think we should clarify for people how this process works, because there seems to be confusion about the role of the investigator in independent workplace investigations.

In cases like these the "independent investigator" gathers information and evidence trying to establish facts, they do not make proclamations of innocence or any recommendations about what the outcome of the grievance should be. It is the job of the board to decide the outcome. So when the press release from RB says that the "grievance has been dismissed" it simply means that (in this case) the controlling board member Yoovidhya has voted for dismissal. The release makes no mention of "innocence", or "cleared of wrongdoing", or what the investigation concluded. Simply put all we know is that the controlling board member voted against the grievance.

[Waz]

After 20 years in charge, it really doesn't matter if the Pope had hired Horner, it's pretty clear be has been very good at his job, and it also seems a more natural path of succession that ownership of the team reverts to Horner, and not either an 80+ year old man with fossilized ideas or Mateschitz jr, who doesn't seem to have been involved at all.

Allowing Horner to buy the team should not be this kind of fuss. He's earned it, while the others haven't.

[chrisc90]

After 20 years in charge, it really doesn't matter if the Pope had hired Horner, it's pretty clear be has been very good at his job, and it also seems a more natural path of succession that ownership of the team reverts to Horner, and not either an 80+ year old man with fossilized ideas or Mateschitz jr, who doesn't seem to have been involved at all.

Allowing Horner to buy the team should not be this kind of fuss. He's earned it, while the others haven't.

100%

Horner should get the chance to own, manage and run the team. He's built it up over the years and made one of, if not the best, F1 team operationally. Probably the best team principle in the sports history.

[TeamKoolGreen]

.
It doesn't surprise me at all that you think Jos is guilty of all this.

Do you have any idea how many times Helmut Marko has said that there needs to be peace in the team
because things can no longer work like this?!

Do you have any idea how many times Max has said that he wants peace in the team and when that returns he sees no reason to leave?!

And do you know how much time it's been since both of them said that?!

Publicly crying to the media about wanting peace is not the way to have it.
I'm not on the side with Horner on this, but don't have to pretend that the other side is innocent.
If they really wanted peace, they would discuss this behind closed doors.

Jos may be an unsavoury character but there's no equivalence when it comes to him and Horner on this. Horner's actions and the lack of accountability for those actions is what got us here.

Total nonsense. What got us here was the death of Dietrich. Not the alleged Whatsapp affair.

The only person Jos is referring to is Helmut Marko and their collective threat of Max leaving to get rid of Horner.

The real doomsday scenario for Red Bull racing is if Christian Horner leaves. Even Pierre Wacha reports directly to Christian Horner. Not Newey. Or Helmut Marko. Christian Horner is Red Bull racing. Max would not last much longer if Horner left anyway. Because under a rookie CEO and rookie TP, Red Bull would be a rudderless ship.

Horner already led RBR through a down cycle and loss of a 4 time champion driver.