2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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venkyhere
venkyhere
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Joined: 10 Feb 2024, 06:17

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Seanspeed wrote:
03 May 2024, 15:33
It's an especially strange claim specifically when the Red Bull cars in particular have not been super reactive cars in the past few years, and lean more towards understeer with a super stable and predictable aerodynamic balance.

Not to mention that being able to handle oversteer-y cars was actually considered one of Lewis' biggest strengths. Just because the Mercs he had in their more dominating era weren't like this(which again goes against your other claim of this being fastest) doesn't mean it's cuz Lewis demanded it or couldn't handle things otherwise.
My claim comes from the simple theory that the car that spends the least fraction of it's laptime with steering not in a straight ahead position, is allowing for the most efficient acceleration and braking, since the sum of the durations when throttle or braking is onging whilst there is a slip angle on the tyres, is minimised. When to choose the 'moment' to release brake or apply throttle such that these two acts dont amplify the slip/slide -- that's the driver skill. A 'predicatable' non-nervous car inevitably spends more morsels of time 'waiting' before releasing brakes or before applying throttle.
Seanspeed wrote:
03 May 2024, 15:33
Generally, cars are not built for specific drivers, and I doubt designers and engineers could really design a car with such specific characteristics to only suit one driver even if they wanted to.
I never claimed that cars are specifically built for drivers. I only claimed that the way to obtain closest to minimum theoretical laptime (which is unachievable) is by setting up the car's balance to "nervous rear" where it will make direction changes and restore no-slip condition in the least possible time. Only few can 'handle' such a car, because it's like trying to decipher a signal without removing noise. It's the driver skill that makes the rear look 'rock stable' to the cameras.
Sieper wrote:
03 May 2024, 15:42
Yes. Just look at how these current regs car go through corners. It is so different than before. Another race class.
That's simply because current regs cars are ultra-wide, ultra-long and ultra-heavy. It has nothing to do with what I am talking about.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Balance looks decent for the first run of FP1 to be honest.
A lion must kill its prey.

Seanspeed
Seanspeed
5
Joined: 20 Feb 2019, 20:12

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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venkyhere wrote:
03 May 2024, 17:50
My claim comes from the simple theory that the car that spends the least fraction of it's laptime with steering not in a straight ahead position, is allowing for the most efficient acceleration and braking, since the sum of the durations when throttle or braking is onging whilst there is a slip angle on the tyres, is minimised. When to choose the 'moment' to release brake or apply throttle such that these two acts dont amplify the slip/slide -- that's the driver skill. A 'predicatable' non-nervous car inevitably spends more morsels of time 'waiting' before releasing brakes or before applying throttle.



I never claimed that cars are specifically built for drivers. I only claimed that the way to obtain closest to minimum theoretical laptime (which is unachievable) is by setting up the car's balance to "nervous rear" where it will make direction changes and restore no-slip condition in the least possible time. Only few can 'handle' such a car, because it's like trying to decipher a signal without removing noise. It's the driver skill that makes the rear look 'rock stable' to the cameras.
I get what you're saying from a theoretical standpoint, but I think practical reality just doesn't work that way. I mean, by your reasoning, F1 drivers should be trying to drive and setup these cars like rally cars, but clearly they just aren't suited for that, especially at lower speeds where such agile maneuvering would be most advantageous. Especially not these current F1 cars which are long and heavy and drive comparatively like boats compared to cars of 15 years ago, not to mention the 1000hp under driver's feet that make getting on the power without a settled car quite precarious.

I mean, looking at Max's onboards, I cant say I notice any real preference towards a lively rear or 'nervous' setup or anything. And when the car does seem to have a lack of perfect balance, Max complains and wants it fixed if at all possible.

Maybe there's some AI that could be trained and made to perform with the reflexes and skill needed to drive one of these modern F1 cars in a more extreme loose manner that's advantageous to laptime? Cuz I'll say if Max Verstappen isn't capable of it, then no human is.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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I think FP1 was a good start to the weekend. T17 is questionable, but it looked solid around the rest of the track.
A lion must kill its prey.

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organic
1055
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
03 May 2024, 19:35
I think FP1 was a good start to the weekend. T17 is questionable, but it looked solid around the rest of the track.
Was just a mistake at T17 no?

Venturiation
Venturiation
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Joined: 04 Jan 2023, 19:48

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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venkyhere
venkyhere
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Joined: 10 Feb 2024, 06:17

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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I don't think he ran even a single lap where T17 was par. It was sub optimal at best. Loads of laptime to be found there (~3 tenths)

Seanspeed
Seanspeed
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Joined: 20 Feb 2019, 20:12

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Venturiation wrote:
03 May 2024, 21:23
Dont worry, I'm assured by people here that Horner is the most important person at Red Bull and nothing will change if others leave.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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organic wrote:
03 May 2024, 21:10
AR3-GP wrote:
03 May 2024, 19:35
I think FP1 was a good start to the weekend. T17 is questionable, but it looked solid around the rest of the track.
Was just a mistake at T17 no?
I saw a few questionable runs through T17 during the medium tire long run (in addition to the lap at the end). Whether it is car or driver, I think they need to improve.
A lion must kill its prey.

Emag
Emag
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Joined: 11 Feb 2019, 14:56

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Venturiation wrote:
03 May 2024, 21:23
If Pierre Wache leaves this team after losing Rob Marshall to McLaren last year as well, then they're heading into 2026 without 3 of the most important figures of their team the past 5 years.

They have to keep Wache at all costs, otherwise they will be in trouble. Suffering talent drain of this level is comparable to what Mercedes sustained a couple of years ago and look at them now ...

DDopey
DDopey
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Joined: 02 Nov 2022, 09:54

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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The ‘lol’ was a really devastating reaction 😳

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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“I don’t know, maybe that last session it was just incredibly difficult to get the tyres to work. Already in SQ2 I didn’t feel great. In SQ3, I think it just felt similar for me, I didn’t really improve a lot on the soft, but somehow we were first.

“Of course, I’ll happily take it, but it didn’t really feel enjoyable out there to drive for whatever reason. In practice, it felt really, really nice, I was very comfortable and confident, but in qualifying not so much.”
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... PQ1F8e0vFn
A lion must kill its prey.

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Sergej
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Joined: 09 Apr 2024, 19:00

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Did they change something in the car after FP ? or maybe the softs were just bad ? can be a difficult sprint race tomorrow.

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Sieper
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Joined: 14 Mar 2017, 15:19

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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No, Max expects them to be fine tomorrow. And for the real qualy they will have learned more and be able to finetune.

It’s just a difficult track to go round with a very high risk vs reward trade off as well.

Seanspeed
Seanspeed
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Joined: 20 Feb 2019, 20:12

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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It's hard to deny that the SQ2->SQ3 results were bizarre. Norris has pole position time in SQ2, but was nowhere in SQ3.

I think this will also mean sprint race pace will be very hard to guess. I dont think many teams really understand the circumstances. Hard to bet against Red Bull as always, but things could be weird.