AM one-77 suspension

Breaking news, useful data or technical highlights or vehicles that are not meant to race. You can post commercial vehicle news or developments here.
Please post topics on racing variants in "other racing categories".
User avatar
tk421
0
Joined: 12 Jan 2009, 21:34

AM one-77 suspension

Post

Obviously other cars (from what it looks like: race cars) use this suspension, but could anyone tell me what it's called and how it works? I'd just really like to know! :P Undoubtedly it's pretty complicated, but I still appreciate any dumbed-down explanations you can give me! Thanks! :P And p.s. does anyone know how much the average F1 mechanic makes per year??

Image

if that doesn't work, here's the link: http://www.supercars.net/Pics?viewPic=y ... pID=851569
and more detailed: http://www.supercars.net/Pics?viewPic=y ... pID=851570
Best regards. I guess this explains why I'm not at my post!

User avatar
ClioSport197
0
Joined: 29 Jan 2008, 17:46

Re: AM one-77 suspension

Post

The one-77 pictured uses DSSV (Dynamic Suspension Spool Valve)dampers. It's apparently the first road car to use it but it's been used in motorsport, mainly on single seaters, for a while now. Unlike conventional dampers it doesn't use shims to control the damping curve but rather, as the name suggests, a series of valves.

BreezyRacer
BreezyRacer
2
Joined: 04 Nov 2006, 00:31

Re: AM one-77 suspension

Post

It's difficult to tell with just that one pic, but aside from the internal shock dampening controls, it looks as though there are add on springs, which might act as a helper spring to derive a rising rate suspension in bump, but perhaps not droop. It's effect would be something on the order of an anti-roll bar except that it doesn't unload the inside tire under cornering.

Again, very difficult tell, as you cannot see linkages, etc. and maybe more importantly, it looks exotic and complicated, so someone is willing to shell out the bucks and show it to his envious friends ..

DaveW
DaveW
239
Joined: 14 Apr 2009, 12:27

Re: AM one-77 suspension

Post

BreezyRacer wrote:It looks as though there are add on springs, which might act as a helper spring to derive a rising rate suspension in bump, but perhaps not droop. It's effect would be something on the order of an anti-roll bar except that it doesn't unload the inside tire under cornering.
Apologies, but that is an interesting concept. The outside wheels load up when cornering, but the inside wheels don't unload... The increased vertical load would imply that extra weight has appeared from somewhere, I think.

User avatar
mep
29
Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
Location: Germany

Re: AM one-77 suspension

Post

These damper arangement might be clever,
but the only thing you see on the pictures is this massive aluminium block,
which looks way to heavy.
They should optimise this part.

User avatar
tomislavp4
0
Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 17:07
Location: Sweden & The Republic of Macedonia

Re: AM one-77 suspension

Post

Interesting arrangement indeed 8) Hope someone caan shed some light on it soon.
mep wrote:These damper arangement might be clever,
but the only thing you see on the pictures is this massive aluminium block,
which looks way to heavy.
They should optimise this part.
And what makes you think it´s not optimised, if I may ask? We are talking Aston Martin here, I think they know what they´re doing :wink:

User avatar
tk421
0
Joined: 12 Jan 2009, 21:34

Re: AM one-77 suspension

Post

it looks absolutely beautiful, though, doesn't it? magnificent piece of engineering. and the exterior doesn't look bad either! :wink:
Best regards. I guess this explains why I'm not at my post!

User avatar
Callum
6
Joined: 18 Jan 2009, 15:03
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: AM one-77 suspension

Post

tomislavp4 wrote:Interesting arrangement indeed 8) Hope someone caan shed some light on it soon.
mep wrote:These damper arangement might be clever,
but the only thing you see on the pictures is this massive aluminium block,
which looks way to heavy.
They should optimise this part.
And what makes you think it´s not optimised, if I may ask? We are talking Aston Martin here, I think they know what they´re doing :wink:
It looks pretty optimised to me..

Giblet
Giblet
5
Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: AM one-77 suspension

Post

my first thought was "What a pretty suspension, and what a high place to put it."

Aston has been making pretty, heavy, relatively poorly handling cars for years.

Relatively meaning other cars in it's price range out-handle them typically. Aston's have always been a good combo of show and go, while never excelling at anything.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

BreezyRacer
BreezyRacer
2
Joined: 04 Nov 2006, 00:31

Re: AM one-77 suspension

Post

DaveW wrote:
BreezyRacer wrote:It looks as though there are add on springs, which might act as a helper spring to derive a rising rate suspension in bump, but perhaps not droop. It's effect would be something on the order of an anti-roll bar except that it doesn't unload the inside tire under cornering.
Apologies, but that is an interesting concept. The outside wheels load up when cornering, but the inside wheels don't unload... The increased vertical load would imply that extra weight has appeared from somewhere, I think.
No apologies needed. What actually occurs is that the true roll center moves, because the springing variance between the loaded side and unloaded side forces a roll center location change dynamically. To a similar extent you get a similar effect with bump/rebound settings, though then only with initial weight transfer.

DaveW
DaveW
239
Joined: 14 Apr 2009, 12:27

Re: AM one-77 suspension

Post

BreezyRacer wrote:What actually occurs is that the true roll center moves, because the springing variance between the loaded side and unloaded side forces a roll center location change dynamically. To a similar extent you get a similar effect with bump/rebound settings, though then only with initial weight transfer.
First, I have to thank you. Your posts have made me think about compound front springs, long bumps rubbers, & the like. They are used widely in modern road vehicles &, much less widely, in competition vehicles.

I think of the road vehicle long bump rubbers as a "poor man's bar", because efficient arb's are difficult to install in a front engined vehicle (& they can be a "noise" transmission path), and because they ensure that the vehicle will understeer at the limit. They do have an issue, because tracking several road vehicles through their lives has demonstrated that the bump rubbers used in road vehicles take a permanent set, & therefore become less effective, with time.

For what it is worth, I concluded that a balanced steady state turn requires a particular CPL distribution, regardless of the mechanisms used to achieve that distribution. However, those mechanisms do determine the deflections of individual suspension elements. Thus, for example, suspension geometry will determine the proportion of the roll moment reacted by the springs and arb, the remainder being reacted by suspension links. An increase in "roll centre height" implies that less of the roll moment will be reacted by the springs & arb, suspension deflection will be less, so the transition to steady state will require less time (typically shortening the steering time constant). The disadvantage is that the sprung mass will tend to "climb over" the loaded side, because the centre of gravity will move away from the ground plane (or, at least, move less towards the ground plane).

Compound springs set so that the "helper" springs are collapsed at static ride height will, in a steady state turn, cause the loaded spring to deflect less than the unloaded spring. This will also move the sprung mass centre of gravity away from the ground plane, acting very like a high roll centre geometry.

To simplify the task considerably, a vehicle that is well damped (& therefore has good control over contact patch load variations) will have dampers that are, on average, matched to the springs. Increase the springs, & the damper strengths must be increased to maintain optimal CPL control. The problem with compound springs is to decide how to optimize damper settings. Almost inevitably, the vehicle will be under-damped in compression & over-damped in extension. The conundrum is not minor. I owned a vehicle once that had to be slowed down over an uneven section of road because long front bump rubbers caused loss of control. Also, I have seen clear air under the tyres of a (non aero) competition vehicle excited by relatively modest vertical inputs on a rig, again because compound springs were fitted. Usually, for competition vehicles, reducing the spring stiffness "split" (or replacing the compound springs with linear equivalents) has improved on-track performance.

I have to conclude that compound springs are a mixed blessing. They can help one aspect of performance, but they compromise others (increasing sprung mass c.g. height in a turn is not a good idea by itself). Overall, I believe that sensible geometry, linear springs, appropriate damping "styles", and an efficient arb usually yields the best solution, particularly for high performance vehicles. How that relates to the present topic is anybody's guess.

BreezyRacer
BreezyRacer
2
Joined: 04 Nov 2006, 00:31

Re: AM one-77 suspension

Post

DaveW wrote: I have to conclude that compound springs are a mixed blessing. They can help one aspect of performance, but they compromise others (increasing sprung mass c.g. height in a turn is not a good idea by itself). Overall, I believe that sensible geometry, linear springs, appropriate damping "styles", and an efficient arb usually yields the best solution, particularly for high performance vehicles. How that relates to the present topic is anybody's guess.
Wow. that was quite a long post. I would say that compound roll stiffness is here now and will be into the future for as long as I can envision. Why? Because ride height and CG are the most important considerations to steady state handling due to aero and the natural benefits of low CGs. Therefore suspension design/tuning is largely a game of controlling the limited ride height that you have to work with. The interactions between anti roll bars, roll centers, spring rates, bump rubbers, dampening, tire deflections, etc all play into this balance. Personally I prefer to use minimal bars, stiff springing, and finely tuned bump rubbers, at least for a performance application. The closer you get to a "street" setup the more bar and less springing you use.

Mass production cars make great use this kind of rising rate philosophy today. As a personal note I have a Mazdaspeed3 these days. The fashion it seems is for everyone to run out and get spring kits for these things to drop them another 30mm or so, but in doing so, you sacrifice over 30% of wheel travel. In the end all efforts to racerize (maybe I should trademark that word!) the MS3 suspension result in a car that performs no better, at best than the factory setup. Why? Because the designers did a bang on job of building in a rising rate suspension. They did it with finely tuned bump rubbers. Now, don't get me wrong. If you were to race prep a MS3 you could definitely improve it through race only wheel rates and ride heights, but for a street application, like these exotics that started this post, a "simple" bump rubber would not suffice. It has to look advanced and complicated. It's worth noting that even much race tuning is done with bump rubbers. IMO, bump rubbers are where it's at for fine tuning a suspension. There is nothing poor about them.

As for dampening, I would say that rebound settings are far commonly too stiff, as an effort to build response into the chassis. But think about this .. most of the time you see an unloaded inside tire it's due to incredible rebound or suspension binding. Both instances suddenly unload the car, instantly moving the roll center directly towards the outside tire, resulting, usually, in sudden wash out. But large amounts of rebound do make the car more comfortable/stable at speed because they build a "delay" into chassis roll, which most common folk perceive as better handling. As you might suspect, I prefer to setup a chassis with lots of bump to avoid upsetting the chassis in hard braking (again controlling my limited ride height) along pretty light rebound. With this type of dampening layout a driver can be very aggressive with their inputs without fear of sudden loss of control, and therefore a faster, more confident driver.

Sorry for my own very long post.

DaveW
DaveW
239
Joined: 14 Apr 2009, 12:27

Re: AM one-77 suspension

Post

Long, but quick (unlike mine).

Taken by itself, BR, I agree with most of your last post.

My first post was a reaction to your statement "It's effect would be something on the order of an anti-roll bar except that it doesn't unload the inside tire under cornering", & my next was an attempt to justify that reaction.

Bump rubbers are, of course, a perfectly acceptable solution to "crash out" extremes &, in the case of "aero" vehicles, a way of controlling the aero platform at high speeds without compromising "mechanical" cornering. I mentioned them only in the context of a commonly used "quick fix" to a (US) legal requirement for road vehicles.

I haven't rig tested a Mazda3, but the earlier 323F was, in my opinion, one the best suspension compromises I have encountered.

BreezyRacer
BreezyRacer
2
Joined: 04 Nov 2006, 00:31

Re: AM one-77 suspension

Post

Rig testing. That's got to be pretty cool. Do you do race cars or production cars? So do you consider rig testing to be the "be all end all", or is that just one more layer of diagnosis that goes into it before hitting the test track? I can guess that, after building up some experience, you can test without needing any track testing.

Is rig testing superior to computer simulations?

DaveW
DaveW
239
Joined: 14 Apr 2009, 12:27

Re: AM one-77 suspension

Post

BreezyRacer wrote:Rig testing. That's got to be pretty cool. Do you do race cars or production cars? So do you consider rig testing to be the "be all end all", or is that just one more layer of diagnosis that goes into it before hitting the test track? I can guess that, after building up some experience, you can test without needing any track testing.

Is rig testing superior to computer simulations?
I rig test customer vehicles. Everything from F1 to OE production & get to see around 100 per year (from both sides of the Atlantic). In my view, the primary function of a rig test is to understand a vehicle, to establish limits to set-up determined by the vehicle & its tyres, & (sometimes) to reveal features of a vehicle not intended by its designer. What I do often makes a vehicle quicker/better on-track, but I can't pretend that I am solely responsible for that. I also rely on the race team/development driver to make sensible decisions. On the other hand, I can unravel a screwed up vehicle fairly quickly, something that is hard to do subjectively.

I think a rig test is complementary to computer simulations, in the sense that simulations can cover more aspects of on-track performance, but only "repackage" what you know or have assumed. A rig test can reveal (some of) what you didn't know. Hence, a computer simulation validated by rig tests is probably a good way to progress.

p.s. It's also cheaper than track testing (I think).
Last edited by DaveW on 26 Aug 2009, 17:52, edited 1 time in total.