2024 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, June 28 - 30

[JordanMugen]

Verstappen chose the opposite. Avoid the collision and get a better run to T4.

You mean with Sainz?

He didn't as the inside car in Austria 2024, because he didn't leave Norris a car's width to the white line as the rules require.

I'm talking about 2023 when Verstappen chose to avoid Sainz even though Sainz was wrong to crowd him off the track.

Sure, but Norris is entitled to stay on the track and not take avoiding action.

It is Verstappen's duty to leave Norris a car's width to the white line! Since Verstappen did not leave this, it is Verstappen who did not prioritize letting Norris past and finishing in P2 safely, just as Norris did not prioritise staying behind and finishing in P2 safely either.

The whole problem seems to be that both drivers were excessively determined to win, instead of determined to concede and/or hold position in 2nd!

[FW17]

Surely keeping your race car intact is more important!

The reference is comparing how Verstappen outsmarted Sainz in spite of being crowded off track in the brake zone, where Norris failed to replicate the same a year later.

https://i.redd.it/6mrgslk89r9d1.gif

Norris failed to replicate it because Max hit him

Does anyone want to share the gif of Max trying to run Lando in the grass after contact too? Or are we just going to continue strawman arguments?

You kidding right...

Norris left the track on to the grass long before Max moved anywhere close to him.

[AR3-GP]

You mean with Sainz?

He didn't as the inside car in Austria 2024, because he didn't leave Norris a car's width to the white line as the rules require.

I'm talking about 2023 when Verstappen chose to avoid Sainz even though Sainz was wrong to crowd him off the track.

Sure, but Norris is entitled to stay on the track and not take avoiding action.

Are you reading any of my post?

Norris is entitled to keeping his line and allowing the collision to take it's course. It will always then become a penalty for Max because Max was the one moving. However due to this, Verstappen scored +10pts. He saw Verstappen crowding him and stuck his ground. The outcome speaks for itself. The penalty systems will never be fair. Previous seasons have shown that.

When there's still a chance to outsmart the opposition, you should take it. That doesn't mean the offending driver (Max/Carlos) was "right" though. It's something to be addressed in the drivers meetings after the race. Norris can raise the incident and ask for precedent or more clarity.

[JordanMugen]

Are you reading any of my post?

Yes I read it. I don't know how Verstappen or Norris can predict which car will come off worse in the collision, just as Schumacher couldn't predict it in Australia 1994 or Spain 1997. Unfortunately Norris is not really a serious WDC threat yet.

Your suggestion seems to be that Norris should get out of the way and "outsmart" Verstappen, when Verstappen was the one not following the racing rules.

Verstappen hasn't outsmarted Norris, he couldn't know the relevant points after the collision.

Fortunately for Verstappen and Red Bull - Honda, Norris winning the WDC isn't a realistic concern (at this point in the season at least).

[FW17]

You mean with Sainz?

He didn't as the inside car in Austria 2024, because he didn't leave Norris a car's width to the white line as the rules require.

I'm talking about 2023 when Verstappen chose to avoid Sainz even though Sainz was wrong to crowd him off the track.

Sure, but Norris is entitled to stay on the track and not take avoiding action.

It is Verstappen's duty to leave Norris a car's width to the white line! Since Verstappen did not leave this, it is Verstappen who did not prioritize letting Norris past and finishing in P2, just as Norris did not prioritise staying behind and finishing in P2 safely.

You are also entitled to stand up to a bouncer, but advisable not to.....

[JordanMugen]

You are also entitled to stand up to a bouncer, but advisable not to.....

This seems to be a pointless circular argument!

Verstappen doesn't care if they crashed, Norris doesn't care if they crash -- so they crashed. It was amusing and Russell was most pleased to win.

What's the big deal?

[TFSA]

He didn't as the inside car in Austria 2024, because he didn't leave Norris a car's width to the white line as the rules require.

Because the rules don't require that. The rules say, at worst, that you must enable the other car to remain on track - that is, within track limits. The "cars width" thing is an old rule that has been scrapped.

If rules required you to leave a cars width, then Stroll, not Bottas, should have been penalized for causing the collision below during his overtake on Bottas (Mexico, 2023).

[cheeRS]

He didn't as the inside car in Austria 2024, because he didn't leave Norris a car's width to the white line as the rules require.

Because the rules don't require that. The rules say, at worst, that you must enable the other car to remain on track - that is, within track limits. The "cars width" thing is an old rule that has been scrapped.

If rules required you to leave a cars width, then Stroll, not Bottas, should have been penalized for causing the collision below during his overtake on Bottas (Mexico, 2023).

Yeah, I'm going to need to see a reference from the rules that indicate what you're said is correct. In any case, Max didn't leave a car's width nor did he allow Norris car to stay on track without slamming into him.

[Mattchu]

2024 FORMULA ONE SPORTING REGULATIONS

33.3
Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not leave the
track without a justifiable reason.
Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and,
for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of
the track but the kerbs are not.

So norris had a full car width left. As per my example above. (see red text)

Absolutely not! The car width (with regards to leaving a cars width) starts at the outside of the white line and works inwards, at no point does the curbs come into play as there may not be any.
You`re mixing up a car going of track, of which all four wheels have to be over the outside of the white line, with leaving a car widths space, which again starts at the outside of the white line but works inwards!

Leaving the track and leaving a car widths space are totally different!

[TFSA]

Yeah, I'm going to need to see a reference from the rules that indicate what you're said is correct. In any case, Max didn't leave a car's width nor did he allow Norris car to stay on track without slamming into him.

I can't prove that a non-existant rule doesn't exist. You might want to show us a rule that says that you have to leave a cars width - or some recent precedent that says that.

The overtaking guidelines use the expression "while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.". Remaining within the limits of the track just requires the car to keep one wheel on the white lines, although they use the word "clearly", which means you are likely not entitled to push someone to the limit.

Now of course, if there's a collision, the amount of space a driver leaves can of course be one of the deciding factor, when the stewards determines who is (predominantly) to blame for the collision. But there's no hard and fast rule for "1 cars width" anymore, and as the video example i posted with Bottas and Stroll shows, it's perfectly possible to not leave a cars width and have the other guy take the blame.

[AR3-GP]

Are you reading any of my post?

Yes I read it. I don't know how Verstappen or Norris can predict which car will come off worse in the collision, just as Schumacher couldn't predict it in Australia 1994 or Spain 1997. Unfortunately Norris is not really a serious WDC threat yet.

Your suggestion seems to be that Norris should get out of the way and "outsmart" Verstappen, when Verstappen was the one not following the racing rules.

Verstappen hasn't outsmarted Norris, he couldn't know the relevant points after the collision.

Fortunately for Verstappen and Red Bull - Honda, Norris winning the WDC isn't a realistic concern (at this point in the season at least).

I didn't say Verstappen "outsmarted" Norris in the 2024 GP. Breaking the rules can't be considered "smart".

I simply think it's interesting to compare how Verstappen approached the same situation last year, to how Norris approached it this season. Drivers have to operate within a system which is inadequate, much like humans in the real world.

We are told not to discuss a certain incident from a few years ago, but one could draw parallels to that incident. The moral victor by regulation and steward decision didn't score any points in both cases. If either could drive these two races again, they would probably make a different decision knowing that the penalty system will never give them "justice". Lance Stroll practically admitted to crashing into Hamilton in Spain to "give him a piece of his mind" and the stewards could only offer a reprimand. The system prioritizes entertainment and not upsetting specific audiences, participants, and stakeholders "too much". Most all penalties are a "slap on the wrist" if that makes sense.

[dialtone]

The amount of victim blaming here is a bit too high.

Norris did nothing wrong and that’s a fact. Yeah he could have avoided the action, and you can always find faults in how victims behaved after the fact, it changes absolutely nothing.

Max tried to bully Norris in an unfavorable line for T4 and that resulted in the collision. He was in the wrong and that’s a fact too.

You can squeeze the outside driver or inside driver but you have to do it well, if you are the one steering, as opposed to the track moving your way, and you end up causing a collision, you are a clumsy driver at minimum, or did it on purpose at worst.

Saying that Norris had another car width is totally laughable, another driver literally steered into him.

That’s as far as it goes for the incident.

Racing wise we can discuss what would have been strategically better options for NOR but I think there’s a lot of mixing of the 2 here and even the strategy discussion misses the fact that Max now also knows he might go out next time he does this to NOR, and NOR may do this to him back next race. But this isn’t a “fault” decision, it was Max’s fault, this is an opportunity discussion on whether NOR is going to get benefits from his decision not to evade.

[cheeRS]

Yeah, I'm going to need to see a reference from the rules that indicate what you're said is correct. In any case, Max didn't leave a car's width nor did he allow Norris car to stay on track without slamming into him.

I can't prove that a non-existant rule doesn't exist. You might want to show us a rule that says that you have to leave a cars width - or some recent precedent that says that.

The overtaking guidelines use the expression "while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.". Remaining within the limits of the track just requires the car to keep one wheel on the white lines, although they use the word "clearly", which means you are likely not entitled to push someone to the limit.

Now of course, if there's a collision, the amount of space a driver leaves can of course be one of the deciding factor, when the stewards determines who is (predominantly) to blame for the collision. But there's no hard and fast rule for "1 cars width" anymore, and as the video example i posted with Bottas and Stroll shows, it's perfectly possible to not leave a cars width and have the other guy take the blame.

The Bottas/Stroll example is almost completely irrelevant and not an apples:apples comparison. I won't get into it too much, but it has to do with a driver choosing to go off track vs. one that didn't and got slammed into. If Bottas held his line and got hit by Stroll, it would have been more relevant. Anyway.

What you're arguing about the "1 car's width" not being in the rules is splitting hairs and you're ignoring the interpretation of the rules. By definition if you've forced someone off track OR you've slammed into them while they're on the edge of the track, you haven't left a car's width. It's cut and dry, there is no argument to be made, and unfortunately there is only one type of fan that is trying to argue otherwise, and I don't mean that personally, it's just that it's delusional to see it any other way.

[AR3-GP]

The start. Norris squeezes Russell in the brake zone. Russell avoids a collision by going off track. 


 
 

[polesetter]

I don’t understand why people are spending hours to discuss who’s at fault, while Norris could have easily avoided the whole situation and score more than 0 points.

Norris pushed Russel off. Norris pushed Verstappen off last Race at the Start. And i’m sure a lot of other drivers did the same thing on some point. No one is an angel in Formula 1.
Norris should think about how to be smarter in those Situations and not argue about the rules while his competitors take the Points.