Our advantage (at least with NOR) over RBR is tire life and Silverstone kills the tires due to the change of directions at the high speed sections and 2 hard braking zones, plus few moderate ones. I expect Max to be on pole and leading 2/3 of the race and then a close race till the end (in case we get incident free race)McLarenMor wrote: ↑02 Jul 2024, 09:20Unless something remarkable happen, given the last couple of races, RedBull are on a league of their own in high-speed, let's hope this will change when you can setup to more of the high speed nature of the track.
It's incredible that I don't remember this. Then it's clear why Max acts the way he does.AR3-GP wrote: ↑02 Jul 2024, 08:13This rule was dropped by the end of 2016: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fia-d ... 8/5019118/LionsHeart wrote: ↑02 Jul 2024, 05:08Then look at how Max defends. He constantly uses a late shift at the braking point, which is completely prohibited by the rules. This Verstappen rule was introduced in the second half of 2016. Further: even after a late shift to the side, Max already in the braking phase shifts towards Lando, no matter from which side Lando tries to pass Max. Such maneuvers can be called squeezing, blocking, etc., which completely blocks an alternative trajectory for Lando, so your words about multiple entry and exit points do not work when Max is holding the defense.
It is also interesting that the Verstappen rule was introduced because of Verstappen's own actions in 2016, when he squeezed many drivers and moved them under braking. And most importantly, everyone obeys this rule except Max himself.
Many refer to a rule that doesn't exist.
No we are just talking about the cars themselves now and the general performance over the race at the different points in the track.trinidefender wrote: ↑02 Jul 2024, 01:35If you mean the main culprit in moving under braking then yes.mwillems wrote: ↑01 Jul 2024, 22:49As FittingMechanics says, I think the real problem was elsewhere. T3 was the main culprit and Max was dominant here, but also getting good exits elsewhere.LionsHeart wrote: ↑01 Jul 2024, 19:22
But that's not the problem. The problem is the effectiveness of the DRS. Lando's top speed is at the bottom of the table. And that's with his constant attack with the inclusion of DRS and getting slipstream from Red Bull. If the top speed had been faster and higher, Lando would have easily passed Max long before the braking zone. This partly explains why Lando had to attack more aggressively in the braking zone, including divebombing.
Norris wouldn't have had to make as big dive-bombs if the initial infraction of consistently moving under braking hadn't happened.
Makes me wish that Norris had done the same to Max in the sprint race and kept the lead there.
I agree that Norris decided to hold his ground. He made a mistake of leaving the door open in sprint and he wasn't going to let this slide. In the helicopter shot you can clearly see that Norris is pointing straight at the edge of the track and that he is waiting for Verstappen to turn in. But Verstappen wants to block Norris so he veers to the left and tries to go as deep as possible (which is why they crashed). Good mindset by Norris and he should continue to stand his ground.BMMR61 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2024, 11:58Lando could have "moved under braking" to avoid the collision. Does this mean then that Max didn't "cause the collision" or at least share the blame with Lando? NO! Technically "moving under braking" (changing your line or trajectory) is not permitted so Lando was actually obeying the so-called "Verstappen rule". But this wasn't the motivation by Lando. He decided to put a "line in the sand" and not back down. This is my opinion, please feel free to comment. I applaud him for not backing down, despite the uneven and unfair consequences. Max hasn't needed to use his '2021 tactics' for some time as far as I recall. Now his authority is being regularly challenged and, maybe, Lando is intent on holding his line, the contacts will become a more regular occurrence. Maybe, the stewards will be forced into action, maybe the FIA will be forced to make some tougher interpretations of the rules. Max has had serious contact with most of the top drivers during his career, more than anyone in this era.
Max does have some temperament weaknesses, or errors of judgement, among his incredible determination and ability. Even with three and a half wins worth of points gap and twelve weekends (plus 3 sprint races) to go, the fight could go pear-shaped quite suddenly. If Max cracks and starts to fall foul of the judiciary, anything is possible. Of course I don't want to see hollow victories, I jus hope Lando (and Oscar) are going to be able to really take the fight to Max in the next few months. Don't discard the possibility of Oscar joining the fight at the front, his comeback from P7 to P2 showed considerable skill and patience and two of the best passes of the season, he really deserved to inherit the win.
We all agree that Lando scored a moral and philosophical victory in the battle of egos, stood his ground, didn't back off. But could he have been cleverer, so as not to risk an actual race victory ? I think that's the more important discussion. It's fairly well established Max has to be take blame for the accident. Apart from orangearmy and some diehard worshippers, and a few exceptions, no one else has doubts about that. But is it enough for a racing driver to ensure that he 'isn't in the wrong' ? Or does he need to look at the footage and learn whether he could have done something cleverer ? Most of us, scratch that, many of us want to see Lando win more races consistently, especially now when the car is very competent and obedient to him.BMMR61 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2024, 11:58But this wasn't the motivation by Lando. He decided to put a "line in the sand" and not back down. This is my opinion, please feel free to comment. I applaud him for not backing down, despite the uneven and unfair consequences. Max hasn't needed to use his '2021 tactics' for some time as far as I recall. Now his authority is being regularly challenged and, maybe, Lando is intent on holding his line, the contacts will become a more regular occurrence.
This went on for 10 laps.venkyhere wrote: ↑02 Jul 2024, 13:29We all agree that Lando scored a moral and philosophical victory in the battle of egos, stood his ground, didn't back off. But could he have been cleverer, so as not to risk an actual race victory ? I think that's the more important discussion. It's fairly well established Max has to be take blame for the accident. Apart from orangearmy and some diehard worshippers, and a few exceptions, no one else has doubts about that. But is it enough for a racing driver to ensure that he 'isn't in the wrong' ? Or does he need to look at the footage and learn whether he could have done something cleverer ? Most of us, scratch that, many of us want to see Lando win more races consistently, especially now when the car is very competent and obedient to him.BMMR61 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2024, 11:58But this wasn't the motivation by Lando. He decided to put a "line in the sand" and not back down. This is my opinion, please feel free to comment. I applaud him for not backing down, despite the uneven and unfair consequences. Max hasn't needed to use his '2021 tactics' for some time as far as I recall. Now his authority is being regularly challenged and, maybe, Lando is intent on holding his line, the contacts will become a more regular occurrence.
It wasn't dropped, it was move to a new rule that gives a wider scope for the stewards to make their own judgement, but in reality it got lost in a bigger more vague rule. But even so it was never policed consistently.LionsHeart wrote: ↑02 Jul 2024, 10:28It's incredible that I don't remember this. Then it's clear why Max acts the way he does.AR3-GP wrote: ↑02 Jul 2024, 08:13This rule was dropped by the end of 2016: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fia-d ... 8/5019118/LionsHeart wrote: ↑02 Jul 2024, 05:08Then look at how Max defends. He constantly uses a late shift at the braking point, which is completely prohibited by the rules. This Verstappen rule was introduced in the second half of 2016. Further: even after a late shift to the side, Max already in the braking phase shifts towards Lando, no matter from which side Lando tries to pass Max. Such maneuvers can be called squeezing, blocking, etc., which completely blocks an alternative trajectory for Lando, so your words about multiple entry and exit points do not work when Max is holding the defense.
It is also interesting that the Verstappen rule was introduced because of Verstappen's own actions in 2016, when he squeezed many drivers and moved them under braking. And most importantly, everyone obeys this rule except Max himself.
Many refer to a rule that doesn't exist.
Was it not just the DRS, but also the fact that Verstappen had used mediums compared to new mediums for Norris which made the McLaren faster?