Red Bull RB17

[cheeRS]

People also need to understand that this is
1. A body shell model only
2. It represents how the model looked almost a year ago as Newey says, so the car cold look somewhat different right now with a year of further development

Personally i think it's absolutely amazing that Cosworth has become a real bespoke engine maker for other companies again, and with modern tech they can really make some interesting and beautiful sounding engines.

Newey says in the video that they've only completed the single cylinder test engine, but has begun casting the real blocks now, can't wait to hear this thing ...

The valve train pretty much HAS to be pneumatic at these kind of revs??

15k 4.5L v10 with a blown diffuser is going to sound positively erotic.

[NL_Fer]

Red Bull should think about turning this thing into a Le Mans Hypercar too I think!

This is the perfect opportunity considering the LMH regulations right now! And it would also make for a nice addition to the already incredible Le Mans roster! Also with FORD joining forces by 2026 that’s also a perfect opportunity for them to get back into the top class at Le Mans even with just branding deal like with the 26 engine…

Redbull Ford-Cosworth, would be nice having the Ford Cosworth name back again.

[Nickel]

How do these ground effect tunnels produce so much downforce without having a “kick” like the f1 tunnels??
I mean they look almost straight! Where’s the low pressure area??

I think you maybe misunderstand how floor downforce works. The old flat floors had a kink in them because the rules mandated it to be so. The new ones may have changing radii, but not so much a kick. Do plane wings have kinks in them? Of course not, it is simply the different curvature of top vs bottom which creates the lift (to grossly oversimplify).

There's also a significant narrowing of the tunnel centrally, which must create significant acceleration and thus, low pressure...

[BlueCheetah66]

[Just_a_fan]

People also need to understand that this is
1. A body shell model only
2. It represents how the model looked almost a year ago as Newey says, so the car cold look somewhat different right now with a year of further development

Personally i think it's absolutely amazing that Cosworth has become a real bespoke engine maker for other companies again, and with modern tech they can really make some interesting and beautiful sounding engines.

Newey says in the video that they've only completed the single cylinder test engine, but has begun casting the real blocks now, can't wait to hear this thing ...

The valve train pretty much HAS to be pneumatic at these kind of revs??

15k 4.5L v10 with a blown diffuser is going to sound positively erotic.

The diffuser blowing is by two fans, not exhaust gas.

[Farnborough]

"The valve train pretty much HAS to be pneumatic at these kind of revs??"

There's simple example around in that realm without air.

Ducati Panagale at 1000cc 220bhp @15250 rpm ceiling. Desmodromic valve actuation though.

Moto 3 bikes, limited to 14,000 running 60bhp for 250cc single cylinder. Think that's titanium valves and running coils.

15,000 rpm not really out of reach without air, also much simpler "system" for non technical to start and run in reality.

Conceivable it's air specified though, but not imperative.

[Hoffman900]

MX singles and 600cc I4 Sportbike engines see 15k rpm all the time with coil spring.

SBK’s are 13,500rpm or so.

CART was over 13,000rpm with coil springs 25 years ago.

The more cylinders, the less angular velocity changes in the valvetrain, so for the same valvetrain weight, cam profiles, etc, a V10 or V12 could manage the springs better than say a I4.

What pneumatic “springs” let you do even with lower revs is run more aggressive acceleration and jerk values than a coil spring, which can be “excited”, which will give you more valve lift area.

[cheeRS]

People also need to understand that this is
1. A body shell model only
2. It represents how the model looked almost a year ago as Newey says, so the car cold look somewhat different right now with a year of further development

Personally i think it's absolutely amazing that Cosworth has become a real bespoke engine maker for other companies again, and with modern tech they can really make some interesting and beautiful sounding engines.

Newey says in the video that they've only completed the single cylinder test engine, but has begun casting the real blocks now, can't wait to hear this thing ...

The valve train pretty much HAS to be pneumatic at these kind of revs??

15k 4.5L v10 with a blown diffuser is going to sound positively erotic.

The diffuser blowing is by two fans, not exhaust gas.

Well... shucks. Haha. I guess I'll have to make due with the v10 only.

[Farnborough]

Standard series production engine and bike!

[Hoffman900]

Yamaha R6’s redline to 16,000rpm (actual, not advertised). From the factory. With coil springs.

[Holm86]

But bike engines has much smaller cylinders, much smaller valves so they weigh less, also they probably has less lift ie. less acceleration.

So bigger valves with more lift would need stronger coils than a small bike engine.

I know its doable with coils, but my guess is it'll be pneumatic, it's a track only car which as I understand needs a red bull crew to come along for a track day, so having a small nitrogen bottle that needs topping up won't be a problem

[Hoffman900]

But bike engines has much smaller cylinders, much smaller valves so they weigh less, also they probably has less lift ie. less acceleration.

So bigger valves with more lift would need stronger coils than a small bike engine.

I know its doable with coils, but my guess is it'll be pneumatic, it's a track only car which as I understand needs a red bull crew to come along for a track day, so having a small nitrogen bottle that needs topping up won't be a problem

Why would it have more valve lift? Until you know what the valve lift is, that’s not necessarily true. It’s all a time / area calculation. Sure bigger cylinder, but also bigger valves.

One thing people forget is the more cylinders, the less velocity changes at the cam, and the more aggressive the lobe can be (higher derivatives) for a given valvetrain weight and / or rpm. A V10 is much smoother than an I4.

The only issue is going to be valvetrain weight.

I do know a lot of former pneumatic sprung valves engines being used in vintage racing do convert to coil springs. What’s available now is light years better than the mid 1990s, and they don’t have to worry about leaking valve seals causing a dropped valve. This is a very common issue, especially with “collector” type cars that sit, which these RB’s will. There was a good article in Race Engine Technology about this a year or so ago and how these conversions are done.

[Farnborough]

But bike engines has much smaller cylinders, much smaller valves so they weigh less, also they probably has less lift ie. less acceleration.

So bigger valves with more lift would need stronger coils than a small bike engine.

I know its doable with coils, but my guess is it'll be pneumatic, it's a track only car which as I understand needs a red bull crew to come along for a track day, so having a small nitrogen bottle that needs topping up won't be a problem

Why would it have more valve lift? Until you know what the valve lift is, that’s not necessarily true. It’s all a time / area calculation. Sure bigger cylinder, but also bigger valves.

One thing people forget is the more cylinders, the less velocity changes at the cam, and the more aggressive the lobe can be (higher derivatives) for a given valvetrain weight and / or rpm. A V10 is much smoother than an I4.

The only issue is going to be valvetrain weight.

I do know a lot of former pneumatic sprung valves engines being used in vintage racing do convert to coil springs. What’s available now is light years better than the mid 1990s, and they don’t have to worry about leaking valve seals causing a dropped valve. This is a very common issue, especially with “collector” type cars that sit, which these RB’s will. There was a good article in Race Engine Technology about this a year or so ago and how these conversions are done.

Agree, and don't think many appreciate the, comparatively, steady creep of materials research, knowledge, manufacturing integrity, repeatability etc, etc that very undramatically brings progress and performance to mechanical hardware.
Almost unseen without some big headline title and catchy, of the day, descriptor to pull in publicity.

I don't believe casual observers have realised that you can't even turn the crank on an airspring valve engine, at all, without assurance that the valves are retracted and fully operational. Capable but very unyielding design given the likely ongoing use scenario.

[Just_a_fan]

Let's face it, most of the RB17s that are produced won't do more than a 100 engine-driven miles in their lives. They'll sit in a collector's garage/display room looking pretty and, they hope, appreciating in value.

[Moctecus]

Adrian Newey has confirmed that they will use pneumatic valve springs:

We started out with the twin-turbo V8 twin because we needed around 1000 horsepower from the combustion engine, and the only way to get that with our target engine weight [of 150kg] was with a turbo. Then we started working with our own powertrain division to look at how we can get the power out of a normally aspirated engine? The answer was rpm, but how do we achieve a high rpm? That meant going to pneumatic valves instead of valve springs. We’re continuing to do durability work to get a normally aspirated V10 that weighs 150kg, revs to 15,000rpm and has 1000hp.

[source]

By the way, the Mercedes-AMG One has pneumatic valve springs too and that's a road car. Compared to F1, they have added a pneumatic pump.