Ferrari SF-24

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
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christian.falavena
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Joined: 26 Dec 2020, 21:07

Re: Ferrari SF-24

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I don't think that's true. Even Haas has improved the load on its car and did better in qualifying than the old Ferrari in all the high-speed corners (so more load ;)), but it has the same suspension. It is too simplistic to attribute the bouncing to a weakness of the suspension, in this specific case of the third element, the only real mechanical organ that can be considered suspect. Without the inerter, no spring-damping unit can stop vibrations above a certain amplitude any more, because it is not possible. You would have to go and change the parameters of fast compression and rebound considerably. This would alleviate the porpoising problem but would completely change the behaviour of the car on kerbs and bumps, leaving it unpredictable. This is why these values are roughly similar for every team in relation to the masses and weight distribution of each car. This is also why each team started to create holes in the diffuser to prevent porpoising, if they could have just designed a different third element we wouldn't have seen so many teams forced to give up aerodynamic load in order not to bounce around.
So, going back to Ferrari's problem:
I also thought at first it was only caused in rolling conditions by the change in height between the sides, but this is not the case, the rebound also starts in a straight line. I think there are other possibilities:

1) the floor is very sensitive to surface irregularities, so once the car has a bump and a quick bounce it stalls and then starts porpoising.
2) the floor has to operate at a lower ride height, so it has a very small working window and with the same load the car is lower than before and bounces
3) the stall starts when the skid touches the road and changes the flow conditions in the plank area.

Simply they have to understand better what happens with certain flow speed with the real condition, I suspect hardly they not saw that in wind tunnel because of this kind of variables.

Emag
Emag
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Joined: 11 Feb 2019, 14:56

Re: Ferrari SF-24

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These cars have complicated performance conditions. Even if one of them is not met, it throws the balance out of window and the car becomes unpredictable.

That's why I don't think it's as clear as the media makes it to be, tying the problem directly with the suspension. Of course, it's a very important part for the mechanical platform, but as it has been said by people who are actually working in F1, the configuration of the suspension (push/pull), has almost little to no impact on how the car can be setup mechanically. With the decision to go one way or another being influenced primarily by aero.

I think the media is going for "low hanging fruit", based on Ferrari's comments on suspension layout last season. It's also the most obvious difference compared to the other top teams.

The actual problems/limitations are probably caused by a combination of design choices, and not necessarily only by one single element.

Sevach
Sevach
1081
Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: Ferrari SF-24

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From pitlane shots the changes to the floor seem structural rather than pure aero.
Monaco rear and beam wings.

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ing.
63
Joined: 15 Mar 2021, 20:00

Re: Ferrari SF-24

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christian.falavena wrote:
18 Jul 2024, 01:24
I don't think that's true. Even Haas has improved the load on its car and did better in qualifying than the old Ferrari in all the high-speed corners (so more load ;)), but it has the same suspension. It is too simplistic to attribute the bouncing to a weakness of the suspension, in this specific case of the third element, the only real mechanical organ that can be considered suspect. Without the inerter, no spring-damping unit can stop vibrations above a certain amplitude any more, because it is not possible. You would have to go and change the parameters of fast compression and rebound considerably. This would alleviate the porpoising problem but would completely change the behaviour of the car on kerbs and bumps, leaving it unpredictable. This is why these values are roughly similar for every team in relation to the masses and weight distribution of each car. This is also why each team started to create holes in the diffuser to prevent porpoising, if they could have just designed a different third element we wouldn't have seen so many teams forced to give up aerodynamic load in order not to bounce around.
So, going back to Ferrari's problem:
I also thought at first it was only caused in rolling conditions by the change in height between the sides, but this is not the case, the rebound also starts in a straight line. I think there are other possibilities:

1) the floor is very sensitive to surface irregularities, so once the car has a bump and a quick bounce it stalls and then starts porpoising.
2) the floor has to operate at a lower ride height, so it has a very small working window and with the same load the car is lower than before and bounces
3) the stall starts when the skid touches the road and changes the flow conditions in the plank area.

Simply they have to understand better what happens with certain flow speed with the real condition, I suspect hardly they not saw that in wind tunnel because of this kind of variables.
Bouncing is not caused by stalling, as well described here (I posted this already):

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/the-m ... t/8693581/

…but rather, it is caused by cyclical spikes in DF caused by the underfloor approaching the ground after a disturbance (bump or other), or maybe deflection of the oscillating floor edges if these are not rigid enough—and hence the comment in post above about Ferrari revised floor being possibly only, or mostly, structurally reinforced.

The cyclical DF spikes, if they approach the suspension resonance frequency, will set up the bouncing—which is basically undamped vibration. Kind of like if you bounce the front of a car with bad dampers at just the right frequency to get some pretty big amplitudes.

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Vanja #66
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Joined: 19 Mar 2012, 16:38

Re: Ferrari SF-24

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4th specification of underfloor geometry this year (Launch, Imola, Barcelona, Hungary) confirmed. Not sure if improved floor stiffness rumours are credible, but it can definitely be a thing as all these cars are on razors edge of floor performance

Image
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

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yooogurt
39
Joined: 03 Mar 2024, 11:39

Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Image
FORZA FERRARI!

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ing.
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Joined: 15 Mar 2021, 20:00

Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Vanja #66 wrote:
19 Jul 2024, 11:34
4th specification of underfloor geometry this year (Launch, Imola, Barcelona, Hungary) confirmed. Not sure if improved floor stiffness rumours are credible, but it can definitely be a thing as all these cars are on razors edge of floor performance

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GS1thEIWUAA ... ame=medium
Would be great if the issue was fixed at the source, that is, the underfloor floor aero. Shows not only great response time to sorting the problem but good understanding of the issue and good correlation of on track with WT data and bouncing prediction tools.

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christian.falavena
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Joined: 26 Dec 2020, 21:07

Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Emag wrote:
18 Jul 2024, 14:08
These cars have complicated performance conditions. Even if one of them is not met, it throws the balance out of window and the car becomes unpredictable.

That's why I don't think it's as clear as the media makes it to be, tying the problem directly with the suspension. Of course, it's a very important part for the mechanical platform, but as it has been said by people who are actually working in F1, the configuration of the suspension (push/pull), has almost little to no impact on how the car can be setup mechanically. With the decision to go one way or another being influenced primarily by aero.

I think the media is going for "low hanging fruit", based on Ferrari's comments on suspension layout last season. It's also the most obvious difference compared to the other top teams.

The actual problems/limitations are probably caused by a combination of design choices, and not necessarily only by one single element.
Fully quote. Yoy hit the point imo.

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yooogurt
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Joined: 03 Mar 2024, 11:39

Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Image
FORZA FERRARI!

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falonso81
2
Joined: 04 Sep 2013, 15:29

Re: Ferrari SF-24

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From the photos it seems they thickened the "face" of the floor vertical strakes. Maybe I am mistaken.

FDD
FDD
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Joined: 29 Mar 2019, 01:08

Re: Ferrari SF-24

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G. Piola photo, as he notice and if I remember right also, Ferrari "kill" the vertical keels on the 4th version of floor this year.

Image

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yooogurt
39
Joined: 03 Mar 2024, 11:39

Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Low DF front wing for Spa
Image
FORZA FERRARI!

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Vanja #66
1569
Joined: 19 Mar 2012, 16:38

Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Fabrega, low df wing from a year ago with new flap tips, as expected

Image
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

Luscion
Luscion
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Joined: 13 Feb 2023, 01:37

Re: Ferrari SF-24

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ing.
63
Joined: 15 Mar 2021, 20:00

Re: Ferrari SF-24

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Interesting, 3D printed template to locate the witness points for deflection monitoring.

Also, seems other teams are doing more elaborate flap to end-plate junctions than what Ferrari are doing. Would imagine this is an area of future development.