2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Seanspeed
Seanspeed
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Joined: 20 Feb 2019, 20:12

Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Vanja #66 wrote:
06 Sep 2024, 11:39
Having a stronger front with a bit more aero at low speed is not a huge thing
It actually is a huge thing, because it's not super low speed where it helps so much, it's the kind of loaded lower to mid speed corners that are actually super common on the calendar these days, especially at all the non-traditional tracks. A reactive front end is a massive advantage to have if you can do it without compromising overall downforce(like through a shorter wheelbase) or balance.

It's also a big boost for drivers, as any driver ever likes a front end that reacts better to their turn-in inputs, and lastly, it also improves a driver's ability to overtake/defend by giving more viable options for racing lines and even with a traditional line, obviously the quicker you can get the car properly turned into a corner, the quicker you can start accelerating out of it, which inherently helps overtaking and defending.

It is overall quite significant and one of the biggest aspects of why Mclaren and Mercedes have taken the leaps they have(and thus why Red Bull and Ferrari have tried to complain about it).

Emag
Emag
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Joined: 11 Feb 2019, 14:56

Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Seanspeed wrote:
06 Sep 2024, 11:59
Vanja #66 wrote:
06 Sep 2024, 11:39
Having a stronger front with a bit more aero at low speed is not a huge thing
It actually is a huge thing, because it's not super low speed where it helps so much, it's the kind of loaded lower to mid speed corners that are actually super common on the calendar these days, especially at all the non-traditional tracks. A reactive front end is a massive advantage to have if you can do it without compromising overall downforce(like through a shorter wheelbase) or balance.

It's also a big boost for drivers, as any driver ever likes a front end that reacts better to their turn-in inputs, and lastly, it also improves a driver's ability to overtake/defend by giving more viable options for racing lines and even with a traditional line, obviously the quicker you can get the car properly turned into a corner, the quicker you can start accelerating out of it, which inherently helps overtaking and defending.

It is overall quite significant and one of the biggest aspects of why Mclaren and Mercedes have taken the leaps they have(and thus why Red Bull and Ferrari have tried to complain about it).
People overestimate the impact that it has. I feel like you get the wrong impression on how controllable the flex and adjustability is. We are not talking about active aero here, where you can control exactly the amount of angle you can put on your wings for a specific corner type. This is natural flexing that occurs when (significant) load is put on the wing and the exploit comes from the fact that you can run a higher load at the front with minimal drag penalty.

People make the mistake of associating the decompression that happens at the end of the straights with what the wing is actually capable of moving throughout the lap, when in fact, that massive movement only happens when the wing is subjected to huge forces as the car goes 300kmh+

You can check the onboards of both McLaren and Mercedes (more visible on the McLaren) and you will see that through most corners, there is barely any difference that one can tell when you compare the angle at low-speed and the angle at medium-speed (it does not matter on high-speed corners, because these are usually corners that are taken flat or close to flat by everyone, but if anything the lower load actually hurts you there).

There are obviously benefits to having this, but most of the benefit comes from the fact that you can run with a higher load through lower-medium speed corners with minimal drag penalty on the straights and not because you get a perfect balance as the wing moves depending on the speed for each corner.

McLaren already had a front wing that flexes similarly in early 2023, but of course nobody gave a sh!t back then when they were scrapping for points at the back of the grid. They changed the front suspension layout this year where the arms have moved back so you can see more of the front wing from the onboard, but still, you have a small window where you can see in last year's car how much movement there was already.

As for why Ferrari and RedBull are complaining about it. Well, RedBull is trying anything to take any sort of advantage away from competitors because they are in a tight spot now. It's what they have always have done. And Ferrari only recently has jumped in on the wagon and one can assume they are actually trying to clarify things because they want to exploit this themselves too.
Last edited by Emag on 06 Sep 2024, 12:40, edited 1 time in total.

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bananapeel23
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Joined: 14 Feb 2023, 22:43
Location: Sweden

Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Emag wrote:
06 Sep 2024, 12:22

There are obviously benefits to having this, but most of the benefit comes from the fact that you can run with a higher load through lower-medium speed corners with minimal drag penalty on the straights and not because you get a perfect balance as the wing moves depending on the speed for each corner.
People also forget that you sacrifice a bunch of front downforce in very high speed corners compared to a wing that doesn't flex, leading to a poor turn-in in corners like Copse or Pouhon, or the majority of Jeddah. Obviously it's a worthwhile tradeoff, but still.

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Vanja #66
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Joined: 19 Mar 2012, 16:38

Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Emag wrote:
06 Sep 2024, 11:54
Something that I somehow had missed before, but Vasseur apparently comes from a strong technical background and has even founded winning motorsports team earlier in his career :

Vasseur graduated from ESTACA where he studied aeronautics and engineering. He founded the ASM team in 1996 which, in partnership with Renault, won the French Formula 3 championship with David Saelens in 1998, and the Formula 3 Euroseries championships in partnership with Mercedes-Benz with Jamie Green, Lewis Hamilton, Paul di Resta and Romain Grosjean, from 2004 to 2007.
ART Grand Prix was founded by Vasseur and Nicholas Todt, son of Jean Todt, its one of the most regard lower series teams. They won both F2 titles last year with Porurchaire and have been a regular Top 3 F3 team for years... He also founded Spark Race Tech, exclussive Formula E chassis supplier since the series was started. A motorsport expert through and through...

Seanspeed wrote:
06 Sep 2024, 11:59
Vanja #66 wrote:
06 Sep 2024, 11:39
Having a stronger front with a bit more aero at low speed is not a huge thing
It actually is a huge thing, because it's not super low speed where it helps so much, it's the kind of loaded lower to mid speed corners that are actually super common on the calendar these days, especially at all the non-traditional tracks. A reactive front end is a massive advantage to have if you can do it without compromising overall downforce(like through a shorter wheelbase) or balance.

It's also a big boost for drivers, as any driver ever likes a front end that reacts better to their turn-in inputs, and lastly, it also improves a driver's ability to overtake/defend by giving more viable options for racing lines and even with a traditional line, obviously the quicker you can get the car properly turned into a corner, the quicker you can start accelerating out of it, which inherently helps overtaking and defending.

It is overall quite significant and one of the biggest aspects of why Mclaren and Mercedes have taken the leaps they have(and thus why Red Bull and Ferrari have tried to complain about it).
If a reactive and super strong front end aero was so important for overall car performance, all teams would design their cars in such a way. If that was the way to make SF24 go faster over a lap, drivers would choose smaller rear/beam wings all the time or even try to raise the rear of the car with static rake to both load the front and unload the rear at low speed. As we know, they don't.

Most of the low speed performance is down to suspension softness and tyres working at perfect operating point. This is not an obvious thing to observe and analyse, like aero, as we have very limited data that teams chose to share with public.

Ferrari are rumoured to be working on their own implementation of a more flexible wing, which is most likely why they were asking for clarifications and assurances. If they bring that wing this year, we will know for sure. Red Bull has been trying to use it since at least Canadian GP and they rarely raced it, it's a very important factor of overall floor performance and an improper design will ruin the car in this rule set.

Emag wrote:
06 Sep 2024, 12:22
*Snip*
Such a well balanced and methodical analysis is always a great read from you and there are plenty of them in many threads, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this forum :)
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

Emag
Emag
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Joined: 11 Feb 2019, 14:56

Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Vanja #66 wrote:
06 Sep 2024, 13:01
Such a well balanced and methodical analysis is always a great read from you and there are plenty of them in many threads, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this forum :)
I appreciate that, of course the same goes to you too.

Your technical analysis is always something I enjoy reading even if I don't posses the background nor the right level of knowledge to properly understand everything. Might have some differing opinions on situations that arise sometimes (although I'll admit, I've made more emotion-run posts than one should make on a technical forum), but that doesn't mean I don't respect the contributions and in general the social aspect too.

KimiRai
KimiRai
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Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Ferrari's new technical structure according to La Gazzetta

Image


Xyz22
Xyz22
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Joined: 16 Feb 2022, 20:05

Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Interesting stuff here. Leclerc said post race that he wanted to keep the brake balance rearwards to keep the front tyres as protected as possible. He traded some micro lock ups on the rear tyres for front left tyre life.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Xyz22 wrote:
06 Sep 2024, 17:27


Interesting stuff here. Leclerc said post race that he wanted to keep the brake balance rearwards to keep the front tyres as protected as possible. He traded some micro lock ups on the rear tyres for front left tyre life.
Leclerc having the assertiveness to disregard his engineer and do what was best in the moment is a positive change in his approach. It's funny that he immediately won a race because of it. :lol:
A lion must kill its prey.

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214270
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Joined: 27 Apr 2019, 18:49

Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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KimiRai wrote:
06 Sep 2024, 16:36
Ferrari's new technical structure according to La Gazzetta

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GWzNI5RXQAA ... name=large

Where does D’Ambrosio slot in there?
Team ANTI-HYPE. Prove it, then I’ll anoint you.

Fakepivot
Fakepivot
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Joined: 13 Jul 2023, 10:19

Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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214270 wrote:
06 Sep 2024, 18:44
KimiRai wrote:
06 Sep 2024, 16:36
Ferrari's new technical structure according to La Gazzetta

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GWzNI5RXQAA ... name=large

Where does D’Ambrosio slot in there?
he is now boss of FDA. and deputy TP if i am not mistaken

Sevach
Sevach
1081
Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Xyz22 wrote:
06 Sep 2024, 17:27


Interesting stuff here. Leclerc said post race that he wanted to keep the brake balance rearwards to keep the front tyres as protected as possible. He traded some micro lock ups on the rear tyres for front left tyre life.
We can see him dancing the car into T1 when we go onboard, very few can do that.

And because of that his older tires where in better condition than Carlos's despite the offset.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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According to a report by Corriere dello Sport, Fred Vasseur attempted to sign GP Lambiase, Max Verstappen’s race engineer, in hopes that he would be Lewis Hamilton’s race engineer next year. GP turned him down and extended his contract at Red Bull instead.
https://racingnews365.com/ferrari-attem ... l---report


What would have happened to Adami?
A lion must kill its prey.

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214270
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Joined: 27 Apr 2019, 18:49

Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Fakepivot wrote:
06 Sep 2024, 19:06
214270 wrote:
06 Sep 2024, 18:44
KimiRai wrote:
06 Sep 2024, 16:36
Ferrari's new technical structure according to La Gazzetta

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GWzNI5RXQAA ... name=large

Where does D’Ambrosio slot in there?
he is now boss of FDA. and deputy TP if i am not mistaken
=D>
Team ANTI-HYPE. Prove it, then I’ll anoint you.

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bluechris
9
Joined: 26 Jun 2019, 20:28
Location: Athens

Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
06 Sep 2024, 17:33
Xyz22 wrote:
06 Sep 2024, 17:27


Interesting stuff here. Leclerc said post race that he wanted to keep the brake balance rearwards to keep the front tyres as protected as possible. He traded some micro lock ups on the rear tyres for front left tyre life.
Leclerc having the assertiveness to disregard his engineer and do what was best in the moment is a positive change in his approach. It's funny that he immediately won a race because of it. :lol:
Yeah but credits also to Sainz because he was the 1st who ignored team orders in some races and he was right all this years. Leclerc as teammate is not stupid and learned this. I mean who could trust Ferrari strategy team the previous years and Sainz sometimes shown the way even though this year they seem to do it right.

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ScuderiaLeo
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Joined: 20 May 2024, 15:29
Location: Mexico

Re: 2024 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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bluechris wrote:
06 Sep 2024, 23:30
Yeah but credits also to Sainz because he was the 1st who ignored team orders in some races and he was right all this years. Leclerc as teammate is not stupid and learned this. I mean who could trust Ferrari strategy team the previous years and Sainz sometimes shown the way even though this year they seem to do it right.
I don't think Sainz has or had anything to do with Leclerc wanting to micro-manage his tires, lol.