McLaren MCL38

[Vanja #66]

As expected, the ultra low downforce wing will not run, and I can't imagine it will be used at all this year.

I think they'll need to balance it with appropriate front flaps in order to use it, that hack job they tried in Monza FP1 does not look like the best solution. However, Norris was really good in FP1 and I'm not sure why McLaren chose not to use that package.

[mwillems]

As expected, the ultra low downforce wing will not run, and I can't imagine it will be used at all this year.

I think they'll need to balance it with appropriate front flaps in order to use it, that hack job they tried in Monza FP1 does not look like the best solution. However, Norris was really good in FP1 and I'm not sure why McLaren chose not to use that package.

The suggestion was that they needed to balance race vs qualy. More wing being good for qualifying and less better for the race where there is less DRS and the need to defend as well as attack on the straights.

You're definately right about that wing here, although curiously the team did bring it, but said its use was unlikely.

[Vanja #66]

The suggestion was that they needed to balance race vs qualy. More wing being good for qualifying and less better for the race where there is less DRS and the need to defend as well as attack on the straights.

You're definately right about that wing here, although curiously the team did bring it, but said its use was unlikely.

Yes, I think they looked up to Red Bull on overall setup of last 2 years and went for more load. The new asphalt changed the nature of the race compared to last two years, but I don't think anyone expected such a big impact on graining

[mwillems]

The suggestion was that they needed to balance race vs qualy. More wing being good for qualifying and less better for the race where there is less DRS and the need to defend as well as attack on the straights.

You're definately right about that wing here, although curiously the team did bring it, but said its use was unlikely.

Yes, I think they looked up to Red Bull on overall setup of last 2 years and went for more load. The new asphalt changed the nature of the race compared to last two years, but I don't think anyone expected such a big impact on graining

They were doing it this year and last. I remember a certain axe wielding chap calling out the rear wing as being the culprit for holding them back!

[Vanja #66]

They were doing it this year and last. I remember a certain axe wielding chap calling out the rear wing as being the culprit for holding them back!

Sorry, you lost me, which team are you referring to, McL or RB? Also, which period or race are you referring to? Context is crucial

[mwillems]

They were doing it this year and last. I remember a certain axe wielding chap calling out the rear wing as being the culprit for holding them back!

Sorry, you lost me, which team are you referring to, McL or RB? Also, which period or race are you referring to? Context is crucial

Dwarf memories are notoriously short!
Ahahaha

[Vanja #66]

Dwarf memories are notoriously short!
Ahahaha

I'll repeat what I remember then

Red Bull for sure suffered a lot with their hack job rear wing in Monza, but this wasn't the biggest factor obviously

McLaren's rear wings were slightly limiting on DRS efficiency in some races at the start of this year, while last year there were more such cases in my view, both in case of too small DRS drag delta and too much drag overall

[mwillems]

Dwarf memories are notoriously short!
Ahahaha

I'll repeat what I remember then

Red Bull for sure suffered a lot with their hack job rear wing in Monza, but this wasn't the biggest factor obviously

McLaren's rear wings were slightly limiting on DRS efficiency in some races at the start of this year, while last year there were more such cases in my view, both in case of too small DRS drag delta and too much drag overall

Yes. In return I was arguing that the fundamental issue with the Mclaren was the front of the car and the rear wing being run was a result of the need to load the front, therefore the RW wouldn't start to reduce until the front was providing stable load in across a range of conditions, since they appeared to be compensating for poor operating windows by increasing load at the front.

This was across the first 5 or so races until Miami.

[Vanja #66]

Yes. In return I was arguing that the fundamental issue with the Mclaren was the front of the car and the rear wing being run was a result of the need to load the front, therefore the RW wouldn't start to reduce until the front was providing stable load in across a range of conditions, since they appeared to be compensating for poor operating windows by increasing load at the front.

This was across the first 5 or so races until Miami.

I don't think their rear wings were too big in any event this year, not even before Miami. They had in general good balance overall and seemed like good downforce level every time. Just the concpet of Bahrain and Jeddah wings included lower flap angle and therefore lower DRS delta than RB and (as of this year) Ferrari and I was surprised they missed the trick at the time.

It turned out they were considerably slower on straight only in Bahrain Q and it definitely remains a complete outlier race for McLaren this season. In any case, Spa and Zandvoort wings now feature this bigger DRS delta, while Monaco and Barcelona wings (introduced last year) also have this feature since both wings already have massive camber and overall angle

[mwillems]

Yes. In return I was arguing that the fundamental issue with the Mclaren was the front of the car and the rear wing being run was a result of the need to load the front, therefore the RW wouldn't start to reduce until the front was providing stable load in across a range of conditions, since they appeared to be compensating for poor operating windows by increasing load at the front.

This was across the first 5 or so races until Miami.

I don't think their rear wings were too big in any event this year, not even before Miami. They had in general good balance overall and seemed like good downforce level every time. Just the concpet of Bahrain and Jeddah wings included lower flap angle and therefore lower DRS delta than RB and (as of this year) Ferrari and I was surprised they missed the trick at the time.

It turned out they were considerably slower on straight only in Bahrain Q and it definitely remains a complete outlier race for McLaren this season. In any case, Spa and Zandvoort wings now feature this bigger DRS delta, while Monaco and Barcelona wings (introduced last year) also have this feature since both wings already have massive camber and overall angle

I think the wing was OK and not the reason for their speed issues or really any of their issues, I just remember the back and forth from the start of the season where they were running relatively large rear wings whilst not having the pace to overtake in DRS zones or to defend on the straights.

They are now developing a range of rear wings, but this only happened after everything in front of it was sufficiently developed.

[Emag]

Yes. In return I was arguing that the fundamental issue with the Mclaren was the front of the car and the rear wing being run was a result of the need to load the front, therefore the RW wouldn't start to reduce until the front was providing stable load in across a range of conditions, since they appeared to be compensating for poor operating windows by increasing load at the front.

This was across the first 5 or so races until Miami.

I don't think their rear wings were too big in any event this year, not even before Miami. They had in general good balance overall and seemed like good downforce level every time. Just the concpet of Bahrain and Jeddah wings included lower flap angle and therefore lower DRS delta than RB and (as of this year) Ferrari and I was surprised they missed the trick at the time.

It turned out they were considerably slower on straight only in Bahrain Q and it definitely remains a complete outlier race for McLaren this season. In any case, Spa and Zandvoort wings now feature this bigger DRS delta, while Monaco and Barcelona wings (introduced last year) also have this feature since both wings already have massive camber and overall angle

Bahrain was a really weird race for McLaren. Just comparing Lando's laps in the last stint against Carlos (the faster Ferrari), he was pretty much losing 0.2s out of the last corner, every single lap. Something was off with the car there, perhaps they were blindsided by previous data and went down the wrong direction with the setup, but it's highly unlikely considering all the testing they do there so who knows really.

It did paint a really bleak picture for them though, because after Bahrain I really never would have expected McLaren to catch up with RedBull & Ferrari. In the subsequent races they showed much better pace. Saudi already was a big improvement but it was hidden somewhat by their atrocious straight-line speed and DRS delta which meant Oscar was stuck behind Lewis for a great portion of the race. Clear air pace at Saudi though, showed them to be much closer to Ferrari than Bahrain had suggested and this was enforced somewhat by Australia, Japan and China.

At the end of the day, the DRS "trick" really is no trick at all. It works exactly as one would expect it to. Bigger upper flap, means more downforce + drag when wing is closed, which leads to more speed gained once the wing is opened.

I doubt they would miss something this obvious, but there must have been some sort of limitation or difficulty running the car with a large(r) flap angle at the rear. I can't think of anything that would limit them to run with a bigger flap though. The way I see it, the beam wing is also used as a tool to manage the rear downforce. If the initial spec car could not handle too much rear downforce for balance reasons, couldn't they have just made the flaps bigger and compensate by running more conservative beam wings?

[deargodhelpme]

As expected, the ultra low downforce wing will not run, and I can't imagine it will be used at all this year.

I think they'll need to balance it with appropriate front flaps in order to use it, that hack job they tried in Monza FP1 does not look like the best solution. However, Norris was really good in FP1 and I'm not sure why McLaren chose not to use that package.

The suggestion was that they needed to balance race vs qualy. More wing being good for qualifying and less better for the race where there is less DRS and the need to defend as well as attack on the straights.

You're definately right about that wing here, although curiously the team did bring it, but said its use was unlikely.

Am I wrong in assuming they will use it for Vegas? Seemed kind of obvious to me and they are just testing it at other low downforce tracks to gather data and refine it?

[Vanja #66]

I doubt they would miss something this obvious, but there must have been some sort of limitation or difficulty running the car with a large(r) flap angle at the rear. I can't think of anything that would limit them to run with a bigger flap though. The way I see it, the beam wing is also used as a tool to manage the rear downforce. If the initial spec car could not handle too much rear downforce for balance reasons, couldn't they have just made the flaps bigger and compensate by running more conservative beam wings?

Agreed, I had this impression they missed the trick, but I think they were just cautious on drag with the flap down in racw trim. After validating lower drag with Miami spec bodywork, I guess they decided they can now move towards this high-flap-angle philosophy.

[mwillems]

I doubt they would miss something this obvious, but there must have been some sort of limitation or difficulty running the car with a large(r) flap angle at the rear. I can't think of anything that would limit them to run with a bigger flap though. The way I see it, the beam wing is also used as a tool to manage the rear downforce. If the initial spec car could not handle too much rear downforce for balance reasons, couldn't they have just made the flaps bigger and compensate by running more conservative beam wings?

Agreed, I had this impression they missed the trick, but I think they were just cautious on drag with the flap down in racw trim. After validating lower drag with Miami spec bodywork, I guess they decided they can now move towards this high-flap-angle philosophy.

But the point being made earlier in the season was that difference on overall speed on the straight was non existent. There was a fraction of a straight that lost .01 of a second, otherwise we matched other cars. RW was a red herring, as we say in the UK. Folks just get hung up.on a top speed and don't look at the overall acceleration curve. Even with DRS open, the point at which there was a meaningful difference was for the last 25m or so.

But anyway, we're just going old convos

[Vanja #66]

But the point being made earlier in the season was that difference on overall speed on the straight was non existent. There was a fraction of a straight that lost .01 of a second, otherwise we matched other cars. RW was a red herring, as we say in the UK. Folks just get hung up.on a top speed and don't look at the overall acceleration curve. Even with DRS open, the point at which there was a meaningful difference was for the last 25m or so.

But anyway, we're just going old convos

That's not really the case, McLaren lost at least 2 tenths on straights in Q on every track until Miami, they lost 3-4 tenths in Jeddah for example. In Miami and afterwards the difference is a lot smaller, but more often than not RB still keep their slight Top Speed advantage over McL. You can see for yourself on f1-tempo