2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[ToffeeTyres]

Mercedes is in shambles, they just cannot figure out this car. At this rate, Lewis's move to Ferrari might be his second incredible decision

I agree with that

[Luscion]

3 years in, same story

the team boss admitted that the engineers had no explanation for the rollercoaster ride at the Austin weekend: “We now have to see the last few races as a test. I am sure that we will find a stable platform again, as we had before the summer.” The upgrade will be retained. It will be used again in Mexico. “It looks like the aerodynamics and the mechanics are not yet harmonizing properly. As a result, there is a lack of consistency.”

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... is-strafe/

[JordanMugen]

Mercedes is in shambles, they just cannot figure out this car. At this rate, Lewis's move to Ferrari might be his second incredible decision

It's the tyre temperature and ride height: the usual stuff. All the teams have fluctuations in performance based on that, even McLaren and Red Bull.

I'm sure Mercedes-Benz will be more competitive elsewhere.

That car is terrible, props to george for not binning it yet.

The "terrible" car has won three Grands Prix!

Sure, Mercedes seemed to have stalled their upward trends, but fluctuations from circuit to circuit depending on ambient conditions and track characteristics is totally normal.

Unless Mercedes fans have lost the faith that the masterful Mecedes GP engineers who delivered strong upgrades, suddenly don't know what they are doing -- there is absolutely no reason to suppose that.

The notion that Mercedes-Benz is not a competitive top four team and is no longer in contention for race victories with Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren in the finely balanced field is absurd IMO.

[dialtone]

the team boss admitted that the engineers had no explanation for the rollercoaster ride at the Austin weekend: “We now have to see the last few races as a test. I am sure that we will find a stable platform again, as we had before the summer.” The upgrade will be retained. It will be used again in Mexico. “It looks like the aerodynamics and the mechanics are not yet harmonizing properly. As a result, there is a lack of consistency.”

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... is-strafe/

update retained? the car crashed on his own both in quali and in the race... Without updates Russell went back to 6th.

I think this team has lost sight of their goal, they are trying to make the updates work instead of figuring out what's wrong.

[Luscion]

the team boss admitted that the engineers had no explanation for the rollercoaster ride at the Austin weekend: “We now have to see the last few races as a test. I am sure that we will find a stable platform again, as we had before the summer.” The upgrade will be retained. It will be used again in Mexico. “It looks like the aerodynamics and the mechanics are not yet harmonizing properly. As a result, there is a lack of consistency.”

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... is-strafe/

update retained? the car crashed on his own both in quali and in the race... Without updates Russell went back to 6th.

I think this team has lost sight of their goal, they are trying to make the updates work instead of figuring out what's wrong.

Mexico should be a better indication cause they will have a normal weekend to test and finetune the upgrades, but surely its a bit worrying that this is the second upgrade theyve brought that has thrown off the balance of the car with it spinning off the track when the driver wasnt pushing and was even slowing down when it happened

[basti313]

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... is-strafe/

update retained? the car crashed on his own both in quali and in the race... Without updates Russell went back to 6th.

I think this team has lost sight of their goal, they are trying to make the updates work instead of figuring out what's wrong.

Mexico should be a better indication cause they will have a normal weekend to test and finetune the upgrades, but surely its a bit worrying that this is the second upgrade theyve brought that has thrown off the balance of the car with it spinning off the track when the driver wasnt pushing and was even slowing down when it happened

Slowing down? In the end both were too hot into the corner for whatever reason. It was very gusty and Ham told he had 40kph wind from the back...
I fear it is exactly the same as for the RedBull. They pull the upgrade a bit too far and suddenly the car is so difficult, that the slightest external input like a gust makes it fly. So they just need to drive it like Perez.

[basti313]

Mercedes is in shambles, they just cannot figure out this car. At this rate, Lewis's move to Ferrari might be his second incredible decision

I agree with that

Well, that was clear, wasn`t it?
Especially for 26. There is no other reason to go there than them putting the most afford into the 26 car and engine. Same story like 2012. Also Merc picked up in 2013...

[Sevach]

Mexico doesn't have super high speed corners so they'll have an easier time figuring out this update.

[Luscion]

update retained? the car crashed on his own both in quali and in the race... Without updates Russell went back to 6th.

I think this team has lost sight of their goal, they are trying to make the updates work instead of figuring out what's wrong.

Mexico should be a better indication cause they will have a normal weekend to test and finetune the upgrades, but surely its a bit worrying that this is the second upgrade theyve brought that has thrown off the balance of the car with it spinning off the track when the driver wasnt pushing and was even slowing down when it happened

Slowing down? In the end both were too hot into the corner for whatever reason. It was very gusty and Ham told he had 40kph wind from the back...
I fear it is exactly the same as for the RedBull. They pull the upgrade a bit too far and suddenly the car is so difficult, that the slightest external input like a gust makes it fly. So they just need to drive it like Perez.

If you watch the onboard he was downshifting and slowing down when the car started to spin, Lewis said he wasnt even pushing the car and was slowly getting the tires up to temp, said the left tire started bouncing up in the air, lost all rear load and the car spun. Toto has also said it was 100% the car along with what the engineers said about the car's problems in the post i made above

[basti313]

If you watch the onboard he was downshifting and slowing down when the car started to spin,

Yes, like you do it for a corner. Not very uncommon to downshift and slow down for a corner.

Lewis said he wasnt even pushing the car and was slowly getting the tires up to temp,

Yes, also looked like cold tires to me. Also not very uncommon to go flying with still too cold tires.

said the left tire started bouncing up in the air, lost all rear load and the car spun.

Yes, a bump in the track...also not very uncommon to go flying on these.

Toto has also said it was 100% the car along with what the engineers said about the car's problems in the post i made above

It is always the car if you go to fast into a corner. It is the car, that looses the grip, not the driver. Or maybe even more direct: It is the tires that loose the grip. Not sure, why Toto is not blaming Pirelli...

Seriously: There is a bump together with a gust wind from behind. If the car reacts to this, you need to go slower over bumps. Same goes for unpredictable behavior, you need to drive slower where the car behaves unpredictively. As mentioned, this is what Perez does all season and still manages to generate carnage. So yes, very similar issue maybe, I hope they realize it earlier than RedBull.

[venkyhere]

I wish Mercedes knew this simple fact! Of all the high speed corners, that's the one place such a simple issue strikes!

If you intend to patronize my post, ask yourselves the question - "why are members (including me) here, in an internet forum called F1-technical" ? You will have your answer.
We are not here because we are experts, it's because we are trying to bounce our layman-enthusiast ideas with each other, to satiate our hunger to learn and discuss more about the 'machine' aspect of the sport.

As to your question :
Of course Mercedes know this, the drivers know this... their fundamental problem is they are too sensitive w.r.t tyre temperature as regards the car's grip balance. Whatever 'setup' they had optimized for 35C track temp, is not just becoming 'sub-optimal' (like it does for other teams) if the track temp rises to 40C, it's becoming undrivable. Their car's aero grip isn't working harmoniously with mechanical grip. Everyone knows this. Probably you don't. And the reason the issue strikes in 'of all the high speed corners, that's the one place such a simle issue strikes' is because T19 is the place where both steering angle and cornering speed are both together super-high.

For all of your explanation, trying to simplify the problem, the track temperature was 36C throughout Q3. Watch live timing replay on F1 app. George did two attempts in Q3, one where there was no such problem and he sets a time and the other when he crashed, despite track temps being the same. Guess what, the track temp was 35C in Sprint qualifying when that car was flying. Some basic research would help. It's better not to try and justify the oversimplification by using vague explanations. What happened in that particular incident is very peculiar and there must be far more intricate reason for it. That car is quite unpredictable and little changes are causing major behavioral issues. So I wouldn't try to sound like I know exactly why it happened, because I don't and I don't think most people know either.

The exact same thing as Russel's Q3 happened with Hamilton in the race, with a full tank of fuel.
Guess what the reason is ?

'oversteery balance' for a high speed corner.

Mercedes knows this, F1 viewers know this. It's got to do with tyre temps. Mercedes struggles when tyre temps go high on a hot track, their car is superb on cold tracks. That was the point I was making, I wasn't referring to the 35C or 40C as exact values in my previous post, I didn't intend to (forgot to phrase it as "say, the car is optimized for 35C...").

But why exactly is that happening ? thats the million $ question - the dark art of tyre 'optimal window'.

[Vanja #66]

The "terrible" car has won three Grands Prix!

All 3 wins were a result of circumstances, even Spa. Austria is clear, McLaren failed with strategy in Silverstone and Spa was mega lucky for Hamilton to have Perez behind him and not have to worry about Lando overtaking him. Merc put more downforce on the car and they were very slow on straights without DRS, but it paid off vs Leclerc who drove a very limited Ferrari at the time and had no traction through slow corners.

Two things were also benefitial in Silverstone and Spa, cold track and Hamilton being very motivated in both races. He'll take this motivation with him next year and perform like that on most weekends, having a stable and predictable car again

[Dunlay]

The "terrible" car has won three Grands Prix!

All 3 wins were a result of circumstances, even Spa. Austria is clear, McLaren failed with strategy in Silverstone and Spa was mega lucky for Hamilton to have Perez behind him and not have to worry about Lando overtaking him. Merc put more downforce on the car and they were very slow on straights without DRS, but it paid off vs Leclerc who drove a very limited Ferrari at the time and had no traction through slow corners.

Two things were also benefitial in Silverstone and Spa, cold track and Hamilton being very motivated in both races. He'll take this motivation with him next year and perform like that on most weekends, having a stable and predictable car again

Do you consider 44C track temperature in Belgium as cold? George pulled off a one stop! It was race win on pure merit. The car just was better than others on the day.

[Vanja #66]

It was race win on pure merit. The car just was better than others on the day.

Right, and Piastri wasn't 1s a lap quicker in final stint on average

[Dunlay]

It was race win on pure merit. The car just was better than others on the day.

Right, and Piastri wasn't 1s a lap quicker in final stint on average

Which car ever won a race by being a second a lap quicker in one particular stint, while being average the rest of the race? Before Lewis got stuck at George's tail, he was doing mid 1m46s, similar to Oscar and Oscar continued to do the same times in free air. You also are ignoring George's times, which was just one second slower than Oscar despite such a huge difference in tyre life and 44C track temps!