2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Cs98
Cs98
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Joined: 01 Jul 2022, 11:37

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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avantman wrote:
05 Nov 2024, 10:02
To all those questioning why Max was so slow compared with Ocon when it rained the hardest before the red flag, or why Ocon in particular was so fast, Gasly to lesser extent. Yes, let's start with saying Ocon is actually a very good wet weather driver. But more importantly, If you actually look at two cars, red bull and alpine next to each other you’ll see Alpine most certainly carried more downforce and likely extreme wet setup and only because of that they had the advantage in the moments where it rained the hardest and the track was the wettest.
Judging by the size of RB19 rear wing(and front as well) it was also much smaller than also Mclaren, Ferrari and to lesser extent Mercedes(larger wing but seemingly shallower angled).
and after the penultimate SC, when it was still raining and track was super wet, only Max could stay near Ocon and started catching him back just before Sainz' crash. Norris was 11s back to that moment. Yeah, let's now talk about luck. What gap would it be at the end if not for another crash or clumsy Carlos. (who answered again to those questioning why didn't he get the top drive for next year.)
Besides, Alpine were really fast this weekend even in dry. In Sprint quali Max was just 0.012s faster than Gasly in SQ2 on medium. Gasly had a bad lap on soft in SQ3 and couldn't improve his SQ2 time, Max was just 0.4s faster.
It's simple. Alpine had an easier time generating tyre temp and Max had a lot less incentive to take big risks in awful conditions given the WDC.

avantman
avantman
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Joined: 07 Dec 2020, 19:17

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Cs98 wrote:
05 Nov 2024, 13:40
It's simple. Alpine had an easier time generating tyre temp and Max had a lot less incentive to take big risks in awful conditions given the WDC.
having full wet setup and more downforce helps generating tire temperature faster of course. But they alpines were faster in those the most worst conditions not only than max but all other top cars and drivers.
When the race was restarted on lap 33, Alpines and Max were driving away from Norris and Russell all the way up to the moment when Sainz crash. In some sense Lando got so lucky with that crash, otherwise Max would've beaten him, Russell and Leclerc by even larger margin.

just look at the wings of the cars, it's very evident how less wing Red bull were running with, especially compared with Alpine and Mclaren.

GrizzleBoy
GrizzleBoy
33
Joined: 05 Mar 2012, 04:06

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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A williams crashes, Max wins WDCs.

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Sergej
2
Joined: 09 Apr 2024, 19:00

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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shot of the championship
Image

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organic
1055
Joined: 08 Jan 2022, 02:24
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Perez has scored 48 points since imola

Can the team get a serious driver please

avantman
avantman
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Joined: 07 Dec 2020, 19:17

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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organic wrote:
05 Nov 2024, 16:27
Perez has scored 48 points since imola

Can the team get a serious driver please
team has won 8 races, a lot more than any other team, not missing on a chance to win another one once. and all that not even having the best car this year.
Who cares about these Perez' points? Who? The nerds at F1technical or...? Grand prix win and the Championship is all that matters.
Mclaren' shown this year how you lose races and a whole lot of points in the main Championship when two drivers are too closely matched and compromise each other. This actually shows how silly were all the assumptions that perez will cost Max and REd bull the Championship this year, where "strong and fast" Piastri will help Lando massively by outperforming Max. Has he done it more than once this year? This is ridiculous...

Max doesn't need a good support second driver to win all the races that a car can win and the championship, he only needs half-decent car.

6 of 12
6 of 12
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Joined: 11 Jan 2014, 16:02

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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organic wrote:
05 Nov 2024, 16:27
Perez has scored 48 points since imola

Can the team get a serious driver please
I agree. At this point, having Perez in the car is as good a choice as driving an F1 car into the gravel *on purpose* to re-join the field...

To quote Steiner: "...looking like a f* bunch of f* amateurs"
No, Kimi, no. You will not have the drink.

SirBastianVettel
SirBastianVettel
13
Joined: 28 Jun 2020, 10:54

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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organic wrote:
05 Nov 2024, 16:27
Perez has scored 48 points since imola

Can the team get a serious driver please
They tried with Gasly, Albon and Perez. What would be a serious driver at this point? Lawson? I doubt he’d do much better than those three. Same for Yuki imo. Colapinto? Just too much of an unknown/risk I think. I honestly don’t know what I’d do if I was in Red Bull’s position.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Sainz
A lion must kill its prey.

Farnborough
Farnborough
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Joined: 18 Mar 2023, 14:15

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Cs98 wrote:
05 Nov 2024, 13:40
avantman wrote:
05 Nov 2024, 10:02
To all those questioning why Max was so slow compared with Ocon when it rained the hardest before the red flag, or why Ocon in particular was so fast, Gasly to lesser extent. Yes, let's start with saying Ocon is actually a very good wet weather driver. But more importantly, If you actually look at two cars, red bull and alpine next to each other you’ll see Alpine most certainly carried more downforce and likely extreme wet setup and only because of that they had the advantage in the moments where it rained the hardest and the track was the wettest.
Judging by the size of RB19 rear wing(and front as well) it was also much smaller than also Mclaren, Ferrari and to lesser extent Mercedes(larger wing but seemingly shallower angled).
and after the penultimate SC, when it was still raining and track was super wet, only Max could stay near Ocon and started catching him back just before Sainz' crash. Norris was 11s back to that moment. Yeah, let's now talk about luck. What gap would it be at the end if not for another crash or clumsy Carlos. (who answered again to those questioning why didn't he get the top drive for next year.)
Besides, Alpine were really fast this weekend even in dry. In Sprint quali Max was just 0.012s faster than Gasly in SQ2 on medium. Gasly had a bad lap on soft in SQ3 and couldn't improve his SQ2 time, Max was just 0.4s faster.
It's simple. Alpine had an easier time generating tyre temp and Max had a lot less incentive to take big risks in awful conditions given the WDC.
Renault engine development has historically favoured torque and delivery over outright power peak hero numbers, even through all of the RB supply years. That's always useful in these circumstances.
Both Ocon & Gasly contributed very mature drives here, aggregating their positive attributes, leaving very little mistakes and Ocon "accepting" the Max overtake .... I believe in the outlook of holding the podium position was just worth more than a dispute with Max as happened here before. Probably what's been lacking from him over his career to be honest.

That Alpine chassis has steadily been refined over the last four races, it's not slow, just lacking that very peak power output. Again, much like a Renualt powered RB chassis.

That's to put in context of what MV was doing (it being the RB team thread and all that) with extremely gentle throttle use in traction, but very early initial braking, notice just how far out from apex he was pulling down changes (especially into turn #1) to keep rear traction away from being abrupt as a dry track allows.

Very good driving and team support from all three podium finishers. A nice mix up in my view.

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Wouter
111
Joined: 16 Dec 2017, 13:02

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Max talking during the drivers press conference about how it is to be driving in Brazil. It starts at the right time.
I think it was a very nice and cozy PC with these three drivers who also talked about why they are so good in the rain.

The Power of Dreams!

LHamilton
LHamilton
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Joined: 23 Jun 2012, 15:40

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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SirBastianVettel wrote:
05 Nov 2024, 21:15
organic wrote:
05 Nov 2024, 16:27
Perez has scored 48 points since imola

Can the team get a serious driver please
They tried with Gasly, Albon and Perez. What would be a serious driver at this point? Lawson? I doubt he’d do much better than those three. Same for Yuki imo. Colapinto? Just too much of an unknown/risk I think. I honestly don’t know what I’d do if I was in Red Bull’s position.
I said Hulkenberg already from the start, when it was rumoured to be between Perez/Hulkenberg back in 2020. But people insisted that Perez was the obvious choice, because peoples obsessions about podiums. But people seemingly have figuered it out what I was telling you back then, that Perez, although a solid driver, does have peaks of form, gets that fantastic result (Baku for instance), gets the spotlight for it, but "regresses" back to normal after that. And when you are a midfield driver, getting one fanastic result, such as a podium, it will linger in peoples minds because they dont really put as much of an effort looking at the midfield as they do with top teams. And when you suddenly have a midfield driver up there, you say "Holy hell, midfield driver on a podium, he must be good!", without taking more time to investigate it. It gets compounded when you are at the front, as we have seen.

I thought Hulkenberg was a better choice because I have him as a better driver than Perez. But also, and perhaps more importantly, is that I think Hulkenberg wouldve been a better fit for RB given what Verstappen wants from the car, more oversteer. I think Hulkenberg is more suited for that than Perez. And I think that Gasly too likes more understeer, like Perez. However, both Gasly and especially Albon, were quite young when they got brought up to the team. I also dont know where Id put these if I were to rank drivers. I would probably put Hulkenberg just above these, given that we are talking about Hulkenberg. Perez is probably on par with them (Gasly & Albon).

Also, SOME people have to much of a parasocial relationship with their driver. The idea that it means more to you (as a spectator) that a driver is 3rd (on the podium) rather than 4th, in relation to a 4th place finish to a 5th place finish, is laughable to me. The difference in both instances is one position. But for some reason, being on the podium is much more valuabe to a spectator. Why? Its not like YOU are going up on the podium. So it shouldnt really matter to much. For drivers I understand, because they get the experience of going up on the podium and soaking in the experience, patting their own ego. To get the spotlight, etc. But when push comes to shove, the difference between 3rd and 4th is the same as 4th and 5th. Its one position (dont think about the points to much).

Right now Red Bull have dug themselves into a hole. I dont see them taking any experience driver elsewhere, so its probably one of the younger ones that get the chance, sink or swim. Either Lawson or Tsunoda. My guess is that Lawson gets it, because Red Bull doesnt seem to fancy Tsunoda much. I think because of his personality and hotheadedness. I would be suprised if they buy out Colapinto and chuck him into the Red Bull. That would probably be the biggest mistake of the three. Not because Colapinto might not be good enough, but right now its such a risk. Although Colapinto did good the first few races, there has been some flaws creeping in, in the latter races, with Albon outqualifying him quite some distance in the last two races. Albon just hasnt raced the last two races, so there is no reference there in racetrim.

For Lawson, we dont know HOW quick he is. What would make him a good option for Red Bull is that he seem to be adaptable. He has raced in F2 and done good. Raced in DTM and came 2nd (shouldve won). Raced in Super Formula and came 2nd. So many different cars, many different categories. So he knows how to adapt. The question is just, how quick is he? If you were to ask me right now, I would say... Gasly-level, as a reference. Sort of midfield, respectable F1 caliber driver. And perhaps that is all they need. But again, rough estimate and I would leave it abit to see what he has got. We havent seen much of him.

If I were Red Bull, what would I do? I would probably take Hulkenberg as a loan for the reminder of the season 3 races to see what he has got. If you deem him good enough, get him maybe a 1+1 deal. (I know Hulkenberg has a contract with HAAS this season and next with Sauber/Audi. However, HAAS has Bearman, who seems to be up to speed, and I dont think Sauber/Audi would be to upset to let Hulkenberg go given that they have other options such as Perez or retaining Bottas. And since people seemingly values podiums above all else...). Probably unnecessary to go for Colapinto, but if you dont value Tsunoda, then maybe. But you have Hadjar coming up, so you could have Tsunoda-Lawson for a year, chuck in Hadjar together with Lawson for the following year and release Tsunoda. And then you go from there. If either Lawson or Hadjar are deemed to be ready for it, you can replace either of them with Hulkenberg, who perhaps then will retire.

Obviously, the last paragraph is something that I would do, not something that I think WILL happen.

Rikhart
Rikhart
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Joined: 10 Feb 2009, 20:21

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
05 Nov 2024, 21:19
Sainz
It's by far the best of the available drivers, I cannot understand why they didn't just sign him as soon as he got the boot from Ferrari.

Cassius
Cassius
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Joined: 23 Sep 2019, 11:54

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Rikhart wrote:
06 Nov 2024, 11:45
AR3-GP wrote:
05 Nov 2024, 21:19
Sainz
It's by far the best of the available drivers, I cannot understand why they didn't just sign him as soon as he got the boot from Ferrari.
They want to have someone who is good, but not too good as it will change team dynamics. Hence Sainz is not someone you want next to Max. Tsunoda and Lawson seem better, as they are a bit below Sainz in my opinion. I am not sure Tsunoda and Lawson want to play the team game however, at least they are showing to be very aggressive.

They also want someone to bring in a good amount of sponsor money.
Tsunoda and Lawson don't bring a lot of sponsor money. Hence I think they are now considering Colapinto.

He is a risky option, but considering that he brings the money and is probably willing to be Max' number 2 he could be of interest.

venkyhere
venkyhere
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Joined: 10 Feb 2024, 06:17

Re: 2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Sainz is that guy who is perfectly capable of 'winning' when the 'main driver' is having an off day. Ferrari have committed a blunder by letting him go. He is not going to perform miracles at Williams, that team will take years to produce a 'winnable car'. Someone of the talent of Sainz not finding a seat in a frontline team, is disaster. Redbull had a great opportunity, and missed it. The toughest driving job in F1 is being Max's partner. Sainz has experience going toe-to-toe with LeClerc (in fact, I think Sainz has developed tremendously since his Mclaren release, mainly because he is an astute student who studies data well and has benefitted from LeClerc's data) and will be able to soak up the pressure from 'the other side of the garage'. He is also a clever operator, with a great 'race reading' ability.
How the talks broke down, whether it was over money or 'equal treatment' or something like that, I don't know. Bottom line is - "mega miss" by Redbull.