2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[dialtone]

Again that isn't true

Right, we’ve had endless discussion on that and I don’t think we’ll convince each other otherwise with the data we have available.

But I don’t hate Max, I would enjoy having drinks with anyone on the grid. Hate is ridiculous to have for athletes.

[Xyz22]

https://x.com/FormulaDirecta/status/1862863649007673820

People comparing Perez to Barrichello lmao

[IntrinsicVoid]

I don't hate Max. He's the best on the grid, and deserves the championship.

He placed the car 3rd in WCC racing alone while everyone else has team mates, through the season that was the best car for a longer stretch than any other car was.

I also agree on this. If the season started like this he would never win the WDC. But amnesia/dementia/Alzheimer is a common thing here as the start of this season is suddenly forgotten. We may need to pour more funds into those health researches

So you are saying people here have dementia and Alzheimer's, and that they need to do medical research on them? This is a very appropriate comment and subject to be discussing on an F1 forum. Jesus...

You as well elaborate and thoughtful individual here who comments with a rationale should know that these diseases are no joke and can’t be cured. And sorry that you can’t get sarcasm. On top of that nothing that I’ve said here in the first sentence is true, to help you with the sarcasm struggles. Ending the discussion with you, should have ended earlier.

[Waz]

In 2022, Checo spoke about retirement in 2024. He should have stuck to that plan and finished his career on a high as WDC runner up in 23.

[Wouter]

I don't hate Max. He's the best on the grid, and deserves the championship.

He placed the car 3rd in WCC racing alone while everyone else has team mates,
through the season that was the best car for a longer stretch than any other car was.

.
Here we go again! That isn't true at all!! And no, I don't give you the facts because deep down inside you must know them.

[chrisc90]

Come on guys, no point going round in circles. just gets tiresome and hard to read the thread.
There were times the RBR was the best car on race day, there were other times it was second best, some weekends it was 3rd best and some times it may or may not have been 4th best.

[Silent Storm]

[venkyhere]

We touched on it in another thread, tire pressure etc and didn't go much further because of general opinion.

What particularly interests me in analysing this is the reason behind changing it from Pirelli.

Increase of pressure is specifically used to support the tire structure / carcass by reduction of flex under load it is predicted to experience.

To split initially and examine just the structure we must remove the tread area temporarily from considering it's influence.

As they've got a raised front only temperature (against general trend) then they are predicting a harder time from heat build than normal.
Theres other influence definitely, but primarily and major in that heat accumulation is the flexing of the structure by deforming, squashing, sqeezing etc and so by raising start pressure the structure simply flexes less under the projected load it is going to experience.
The risk is taking it over temperature such that it starts to fail in that structure, ultimately to "de-laminate" fall apart in layman's terms.
Also carries risk of tread gauge material literally becoming unbonded from the structure to give initially "blistering" or more substantial tread detachment.

Now the more interesting relationship with the tread. The flex comes from the tread being "located " effectively to the track ... grip in other words. This to cause the structure now to bend between vehicle mass (including aero load) how the tire holds the track.
I'll use the example of soft tire here, if the driver raises the tread temperature very fast, such that the structure temperature doesn't have decent chance to follow that "curve" in accumulation, then the tread can go over temperature and start reducing grip against track from sliding too much. At which point the ability to generate flex in the structure now goes down. The driver starts to feel understeer, the structure doesn't see enough flex to bring it into optimum, the they call that "graining " which makes them slower.
Just as LeClerc did in Las Vegas when Max caught him after roasting his tread but not having built heat in structure sufficient to let the WHOLE tire function within it's IDEAL temperature range.

The alternate approach is to bring them in slowly (notice that in MV&RB, also Ferrari chassis) then as the structure temp comes up to ideal AND the tread coincide, then the full performance can be extracted.

Raised pressure increases that gap POTENTIAL between getting them both to the same place, at the same time.

The car with the absolute greatest load will always have advantages in accumulation of tire structure flex (that MB chassis seems to do this) to switch on tires (also valuable at low temp, but not exclusively) and demonstrates better performance with less risk.
Some circuit and pressure combination clearly favour just this raised pressure, for some chassis.
Conversely, high track heat and ambient temperature may take both the structure and the surface too high and out of range.

The problem the driver faces here, in a sprint, is that there will be precious little room to work their own characteristics of car tire interaction while even holding their position. Its he'll for leather from the start. That also leaves naff all room for any sort a strategy.
Get any graining and you'll be "toasted" by those near you, with little options in practical terms. There's very little in the way of respite to let the fronts recover around the lap , then try to give it absolutely everything in it out of last corner so you don't get caught by DRS down that straight.

It's gonna be hectic for all.

Thank you for taking the time to write so eloquently and helping anyone who reads this thread gain an insight into 'tyre deg' (graining, blistering and the actual 'deg'). The overwhelming question I have, is :
"why aren't Pirelli/FIA letting the teams have a free hand with tyre pressure, instead of imposing a hard limit on the min value ?"
It would simplify each team's aero/suspension mapping for each track, and make all the teams operate optimally w.r.t the car they have designed, and it will be a clean case of 'may the best team win'. They can all evaluate thier own tradeoffs, their own pit windows and choose compounds. What would be a compelling reason to not allow this ?

[napoleon1981]

The relative pace definitely slipped away more and more as the season went on. The dominance was gone around Miami, the performance really started falling off around mid season, maybe right before summer break. I'm curious how this affected the 2025 car development. That drop of in performance may very well have been after they locked in the concept for the 2025 car, I wouldn't be surprised if RB didn't commit to the aggressive changes that are now obviously required.

[venkyhere]

Same pace as haas. Clap, clap, clap

I'm wondering what kind of wing was there on Hulk's car, was it smaller than Max's ? Looked as if the gains from the entire lap was lost on the straight making it impossible to pass. But again, conversely, tire deg was similar as well I think, to thwart the downforce argument.

[Cs98]

I also agree on this. If the season started like this he would never win the WDC. But amnesia/dementia/Alzheimer is a common thing here as the start of this season is suddenly forgotten. We may need to pour more funds into those health researches

So you are saying people here have dementia and Alzheimer's, and that they need to do medical research on them? This is a very appropriate comment and subject to be discussing on an F1 forum. Jesus...

You as well elaborate and thoughtful individual here who comments with a rationale should know that these diseases are no joke and can’t be cured. And sorry that you can’t get sarcasm. On top of that nothing that I’ve said here in the first sentence is true, to help you with the sarcasm struggles. Ending the discussion with you, should have ended earlier.

Sarcasm can be inappropriate. Joking about people having neurocognitive disorders over a disagreement is not particularly funny, nor is it relevant to the topic. The mods should deal with it tbh, but some comments deserve to be called out right away.

[Farnborough]

We touched on it in another thread, tire pressure etc and didn't go much further because of general opinion.

What particularly interests me in analysing this is the reason behind changing it from Pirelli.

Increase of pressure is specifically used to support the tire structure / carcass by reduction of flex under load it is predicted to experience.

To split initially and examine just the structure we must remove the tread area temporarily from considering it's influence.

As they've got a raised front only temperature (against general trend) then they are predicting a harder time from heat build than normal.
Theres other influence definitely, but primarily and major in that heat accumulation is the flexing of the structure by deforming, squashing, sqeezing etc and so by raising start pressure the structure simply flexes less under the projected load it is going to experience.
The risk is taking it over temperature such that it starts to fail in that structure, ultimately to "de-laminate" fall apart in layman's terms.
Also carries risk of tread gauge material literally becoming unbonded from the structure to give initially "blistering" or more substantial tread detachment.

Now the more interesting relationship with the tread. The flex comes from the tread being "located " effectively to the track ... grip in other words. This to cause the structure now to bend between vehicle mass (including aero load) how the tire holds the track.
I'll use the example of soft tire here, if the driver raises the tread temperature very fast, such that the structure temperature doesn't have decent chance to follow that "curve" in accumulation, then the tread can go over temperature and start reducing grip against track from sliding too much. At which point the ability to generate flex in the structure now goes down. The driver starts to feel understeer, the structure doesn't see enough flex to bring it into optimum, the they call that "graining " which makes them slower.
Just as LeClerc did in Las Vegas when Max caught him after roasting his tread but not having built heat in structure sufficient to let the WHOLE tire function within it's IDEAL temperature range.

The alternate approach is to bring them in slowly (notice that in MV&RB, also Ferrari chassis) then as the structure temp comes up to ideal AND the tread coincide, then the full performance can be extracted.

Raised pressure increases that gap POTENTIAL between getting them both to the same place, at the same time.

The car with the absolute greatest load will always have advantages in accumulation of tire structure flex (that MB chassis seems to do this) to switch on tires (also valuable at low temp, but not exclusively) and demonstrates better performance with less risk.
Some circuit and pressure combination clearly favour just this raised pressure, for some chassis.
Conversely, high track heat and ambient temperature may take both the structure and the surface too high and out of range.

The problem the driver faces here, in a sprint, is that there will be precious little room to work their own characteristics of car tire interaction while even holding their position. Its he'll for leather from the start. That also leaves naff all room for any sort a strategy.
Get any graining and you'll be "toasted" by those near you, with little options in practical terms. There's very little in the way of respite to let the fronts recover around the lap , then try to give it absolutely everything in it out of last corner so you don't get caught by DRS down that straight.

It's gonna be hectic for all.

Thank you for taking the time to write so eloquently and helping anyone who reads this thread gain an insight into 'tyre deg' (graining, blistering and the actual 'deg'). The overwhelming question I have, is :
"why aren't Pirelli/FIA letting the teams have a free hand with tyre pressure, instead of imposing a hard limit on the min value ?"
It would simplify each team's aero/suspension mapping for each track, and make all the teams operate optimally w.r.t the car they have designed, and it will be a clean case of 'may the best team win'. They can all evaluate thier own tradeoffs, their own pit windows and choose compounds. What would be a compelling reason to not allow this ?

In a word, liability.

I dont think anyone would accept it and the teams run absolutely to the raggedy limit to gain a championship.

Good example


Some electrifying driving, some pre-red bull team (Jaguar) and lots of tire bits.

The MV crash on straight in Baku was "suspected" of marginal,pressure (by I think judicious adjustment) also GR at coincidentally Belgium this year, seeming to take tires right into their margins.

Competitive and potentially very edgy though, yes.

No tire maker will want to be associated with that risk in public view, which I can certainly see.

[AR3-GP]

The setup work of Sergio Perez during the sprint race was legendary.

[f1isgood]

This team is a joke!

[napoleon1981]

What Verstappen putting that tractor on pole!