Can a car desing suit more or less to a driver style to the point we see in RBR or Merc??

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rgava
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Can a car desing suit more or less to a driver style to the point we see in RBR or Merc??

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Just read an article in planet F1 reasoning about the big diferences in qualy performances between LH and GR:
https://www.planetf1.com/features/lewis ... ing-errors

There we can read:
Far from the truth, the differences are very subtle but all lead to a common reasoning: Hamilton’s lack of execution in putting together a perfect lap at key moments in qualifying and a big contradiction between his driving style and the ‘engineering’ behind the W15.
I've been thinking by some time now about the big gap between MV and his teammates in RB in the last years. I've the theory that something in the development philosophy of the RB cars in this rules has been suited to MV driving style/habilities and making very difficult for all his teammates to extract the same laptimes.

Or is it just b/*///t from the journalist who wrote that article and i'm also wrong?

What is your oppinion from a technical perspective?
Last edited by rgava on 27 Nov 2024, 19:51, edited 1 time in total.

Bracken
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Re: Can a car desing suit more or less to a driver style?

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I'd say there's truth in it but it's a drivers jobs to adapt, if you can't then that's on you. A team will generally try and build the fastest car they can, if that car suits a Max or a George better then such is life.

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Peter Piper
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Re: Can a car desing suit more or less to a driver style?

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Bracken wrote:
27 Nov 2024, 17:53
I'd say there's truth in it but it's a drivers jobs to adapt, if you can't then that's on you. A team will generally try and build the fastest car they can, if that car suits a Max or a George better then such is life.
I'd agree with that.

My impression is that the teams try to develop the fastest car they can, and then as the season progresses they address its weak points. Now, different drivers will have different opinions on what those weak points are relative to their own driving style, and it's up to the team to decide where to focus their resources. Ideally both drivers provide the same feedback, but as a team manager presumably you'll tend to listen to your faster driver.

gshevlin
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Re: Can a car desing suit more or less to a driver style to the point we see in RBR or Merc??

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With a lot of the prize money dependent on the team finishing position in the Constructors Championship, the team has the responsibility of ensuring that both drivers get the maximum out of the car. It is not just the responsibility of the drivers.
Teams have designed and optimized cars to suit the lead driver's style. When Jean Alesi and Gerhard Berger tested the B195 at the end of 1995, they found it totally incompatible with their driving styles. The car had been optimized for Michael Schumacher's driving style.

Andi76
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Re: Can a car desing suit more or less to a driver style to the point we see in RBR or Merc??

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gshevlin wrote:
01 Dec 2024, 17:17
With a lot of the prize money dependent on the team finishing position in the Constructors Championship, the team has the responsibility of ensuring that both drivers get the maximum out of the car. It is not just the responsibility of the drivers.
Teams have designed and optimized cars to suit the lead driver's style. When Jean Alesi and Gerhard Berger tested the B195 at the end of 1995, they found it totally incompatible with their driving styles. The car had been optimized for Michael Schumacher's driving style.
That's not true. Gerhard Berger said: "I told the chief technicians - I've flown off three times now and I'll take it on my head, but you must realize that the car has a problem, and perhaps you could kindly fire up the computers again. The mystery could indeed be solved. The car went "in stall" at full speed on bumps, like an airplane in which the aerodynamic effect abruptly breaks off. If this bump was in a fast bend, the car snap oversteered. This characteristic of the Benetton was certainly not new. In 1995, Johnny Herbert was hit a few times because of this and then no longer dared to push the limits. And Michael Schumacher had a kind of extrasensory reflex for the situation, which he then explained: he automatically anticipated the counter-steering on the bump and had already memorized this process (note - which brings us to adaptability, among other things). At this point at the latest, I took back the last remnants of my reservations about Michael Schumacher. Anyone who could handle this car so confidently, even at the limit, had to be absolutely top class". Taken from Bergers Biographie "Zielgerade".

So the reason Berger and Alesi couldn't cope with the Benetton was not that it was designed for Schumacher's driving style, but a stall on bumps in fast sections. Such stalls in the underdloor area have always existed and still exist today. And then as now, there are drivers who can cope with it and those who cannot. Those who can cope with it have a superior feel for the car, more courage, superior vehicle control and better adaptability and there are very few drivers, namely the absolute greatest of their time who can cope with these kind of problem. Senna was one of them, because the Williams of 1994 also suffered from this until Barcelona, Schumacher and a Max Verstappen as well and, as with airplanes, slightly unstable cars are more responsive and a top driver can drive around the problems and then exploit the better responsivness accordingly. In general, it has been a persistent rumor for many decades that designers "build cars for a driver". Certainly there are drivers who prefer an understeering car and others want it to be completely neutral, which is difficult to achieve, and still others like an oversteering car. And of course the driver contributes with his messages and wishes to the fact that a car develops in this or that direction (which is also the reason why teams with drivers who have completely opposite preferences - see Benetton with Berger and Alesi to stay with this example, where Berger preferred a more understeering, Alesi preferred a more oversteering car - usually get worse because the drivers give contradictory feedback and express opposite wishes. One wants to go this way, the other exactly the other way. This confuses the team and engineers and you can't make any progress. Ultimately, however, designers and engineers always develop a car so that it becomes faster and don't tailor it to one driver or his driving style. As I said, this is a cliché that has persisted for decades and is particularly popular with drivers who lose to their team-mates. An engineer or designer will always choose the option that makes the car faster, regardless of which driver it suits, and ultimately it is up to the driver to identify the weak points or potential for improvement of the car (where Schumacher in particular was very good) and to influence them and then adjust the car with his engineer to suit his driving style and the track.

To go briefly into the matter between Hamilton and Russel - I think you can already tell a lot from what has been said, but basically every racing driver and person loses speed with increasing age. This is biologically based, because at the age of 40 the ability to estimate distances at high speeds decreases, which is also the reason why fighter pilots in most countries "retire" at the age of 45. Of course, the decline in this ability costs a racing driver precision and therefore also lap time. If you have a car that is not aerodynamically stable, you can only avoid a mistake like the 1995 Benetton if you drive with absolute precision. Because then the same thing always happens and the car becomes predictable, so to speak. That was the case with the Ferrari F310 in 1996. On this car, the flow at the front edge of the underbody tore off in waves. Because Schumacher drove with absolute precision and the car always reacted in the same way, the car became predictable for him. For Irvine, on the other hand, who was far less precise, the car always reacted differently and was unpredictable. Of course, if this ability decreases and you can drive less precisely, a car that is predictable for one driver becomes unpredictable for another. Age is also inevitably linked to this due to the biologically unavoidable decline in this ability, which is one of the reasons why older drivers find it harder to adapt to a "problematic" car, in addition to the "normal" loss of laptime due to this lack of precision. Another point is that older drivers simply take fewer risks. As you get older, the daredevil attitude is lost to a certain extent, you are more aware of your own vulnerability and mortality and are also more responsible in this respect. There are inevitable biological and psychological points that inevitably make a driver slower after a certain age. How much slower, whether 0.5 or 1.5 seconds, always depends on the physiology and life of a person and their psyche. One person's "deterioration" is faster, another's slower. One person is more willing to take risks, the other is not. Both determine how much a rider slows down in old age, but they do slow down. Everyone. And also a LH, who is now exactly at the age when these things start to become noticeable.
Last edited by Andi76 on 03 Dec 2024, 10:04, edited 1 time in total.

basti313
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Re: Can a car desing suit more or less to a driver style to the point we see in RBR or Merc??

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Great post Andi! Thank you!
rgava wrote:
27 Nov 2024, 16:52
There we can read:
Far from the truth, the differences are very subtle but all lead to a common reasoning: Hamilton’s lack of execution in putting together a perfect lap at key moments in qualifying and a big contradiction between his driving style and the ‘engineering’ behind the W15.
I think the wording "engineering" is wrong. It is basically the rule that is the issue, the engineering actually tries to get as much understeer out of the car and make it a stable platform...while the ruleset is pushing towards a strongly to a car that does not turn and needs to be driven smoothly.

In Vegas, where the car was well balanced Hamilton had no issues and was fast, but bottled the Q. Also not uncommon, but completely different reason than the car. So it is clearly the balance of the car and engineering wants to be where Hamilton wants to be...as also Russel wins with this car...
rgava wrote:
27 Nov 2024, 16:52
Or is it just b/*///t from the journalist who wrote that article and i'm also wrong?

What is your oppinion from a technical perspective?
Nonsense. This season is the best example:
- RedBull nearly ruined their season and potentially next season by not listening to both drivers. They did not try to suit anyone.
- Mercedes struggles to get the car balanced. Once it is balanced the win races. They did not design an understeering car for Russel, they just fail at certain conditions to get it balanced and Russel can cope better with this.
Don`t russel the hamster!

CHT
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Re: Can a car desing suit more or less to a driver style to the point we see in RBR or Merc??

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To be quick in modern F1, driver will need drive like a transformer and quick adjust to different requirement to get the best out of every corner. Its no longer just about oversteer or understeer

Slitch-nl
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Re: Can a car desing suit more or less to a driver style to the point we see in RBR or Merc??

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Hamilton just didnt adapt his style to the car. These generation cars are more sensitive to pitch and roll. Sometime the more you push, the less you get because the aero platform isnt stable anymore

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JordanMugen
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Re: Can a car desing suit more or less to a driver style to the point we see in RBR or Merc??

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gshevlin wrote:
01 Dec 2024, 17:17
When Jean Alesi and Gerhard Berger tested the B195 at the end of 1995, they found it totally incompatible with their driving styles. The car had been optimized for Michael Schumacher's driving style.
The simpler explanation is that Alesi and Berger were not as good as Schumacher.

Schumacher conversely thought there was far more potential in the Ferrari than either Alesi and Berger had shown, after all.

gshevlin wrote:
01 Dec 2024, 17:17
With a lot of the prize money dependent on the team finishing position in the Constructors Championship, the team has the responsibility of ensuring that both drivers get the maximum out of the car.
If this makes the quicker of the two drivers slower over the season, as Ferrari did with Leclerc in 2022, this seems rather dumb TBH.

Personally, the aspect I liked most is having a strong front end. At the beginning of the season the insertion [at the front end] was just what I like.
- Charles Leclerc
https://scuderiafans.com/charles-lecler ... r-in-2022/

At the beginning of the season, Sainz was regularly flying off the track whilst Leclerc was dominating races!

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Can a car desing suit more or less to a driver style to the point we see in RBR or Merc??

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agreed, below is priceless testimony (from a 16-time ? F1 winner)

Andi76 wrote:
03 Dec 2024, 09:33
.... Gerhard Berger said: "I told the chief technicians - I've flown off three times now and I'll take it on my head, but you must realize that the car has a problem, and perhaps you could kindly fire up the computers again. The mystery could indeed be solved. The car went "in stall" at full speed on bumps, like an airplane in which the aerodynamic effect abruptly breaks off. If this bump was in a fast bend, the car snap oversteered. This characteristic of the Benetton was certainly not new. In 1995, Johnny Herbert was hit a few times because of this and then no longer dared to push the limits. And Michael Schumacher had a kind of extrasensory reflex for the situation, which he then explained: he automatically anticipated the counter-steering on the bump and had already memorized this process (note - which brings us to adaptability, among other things). At this point at the latest, I took back the last remnants of my reservations about Michael Schumacher. Anyone who could handle this car so confidently, even at the limit, had to be absolutely top class". Taken from Bergers Biographie "Zielgerade".


... as with airplanes, slightly unstable cars are more responsive and a top driver can drive around the problems and then exploit the better responsivness accordingly....
aerodynamically 'slightly unstable' airplanes (vs neutral stability) are more responsive in what we see as turn entry
but less responsive ie less efficient once established in a turn (manoeuvre isn't the reason for reduced stability design)
it might be said that in some ways the same applies to cars

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Can a car desing suit more or less to a driver style to the point we see in RBR or Merc??

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At Original post. Yes of course.
The mechanical and aero balance can be tuned to work better with certain types of tranisent inputs (driver sytles).
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TeamKoolGreen
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Re: Can a car desing suit more or less to a driver style to the point we see in RBR or Merc??

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This looks like a big excuse piece for a 40 year old driver. Russell was also faster in race pace over the year

r85
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Re: Can a car desing suit more or less to a driver style to the point we see in RBR or Merc??

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TeamKoolGreen wrote:
24 Jan 2025, 22:42
This looks like a big excuse piece for a 40 year old driver. Russell was also faster in race pace over the year
Bit of a 50/50 in my opinion. I believe Lewis has a driving style that works very well with any car that doesn't have ground effect plastered all over it.

But seeing how sensitive these cars are, the level of adaptation is much higher which is where Lewis being older is a disadvantage. He's still fast, but he can't fully adapt anymore.

Polarit
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Re: Can a car desing suit more or less to a driver style to the point we see in RBR or Merc??

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Car characteristics suit certain drivers, and some of the best can adapt to them, but the current regulations work against drivers who have historically pushed cars to their limits.

The limits of these cars because of the ground effect aren't like most of the cars we've seen over the years. They inhibit overdriving or taking risks.

They don't like bumps, changes in direction under breaking or anything aggressive..... or at least certain cars don't.

Taking Hamilton for example there is the Montoya story from 2006 when he took a dog of a car apparently and pounded in fastest laps and said there was nothing wrong with it. He can drive a car like Verstappen can, which is on the edge mechanically, and do things others can't.

But the aero rules of this generation completely negate that ability, especially over one lap. I think in race trim when he can settle in... those limits become clearer. But they're still underdriving.

Looking back.... the infamous season was cars and drivers at their peak. Watching those cars go round compared to these it's like another formula.

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WardenOfTheNorth
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Re: Can a car desing suit more or less to a driver style to the point we see in RBR or Merc??

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gshevlin wrote:
01 Dec 2024, 17:17
With a lot of the prize money dependent on the team finishing position in the Constructors Championship, the team has the responsibility of ensuring that both drivers get the maximum out of the car. It is not just the responsibility of the drivers.
Teams have designed and optimized cars to suit the lead driver's style. When Jean Alesi and Gerhard Berger tested the B195 at the end of 1995, they found it totally incompatible with their driving styles. The car had been optimized for Michael Schumacher's driving style.
In the version I heard, Alesi liked the car whilst Berger said it was undrivable. Either way, good anecdote.
"From success, you learn absolutely nothing. From failure and setbacks, conclusions can be drawn." - Niki Lauda