2019 Ferrari engine saga

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dialtone
dialtone
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Joined: 25 Feb 2019, 01:31

2019 Ferrari engine saga

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While browsing I was recommended this brand new video (from 8 hours ago as of this posting), which I think really recaps the events.



One thing that I had somehow missed in my reading at the time was the final declaration from the FIA:
The FIA was not fully satisfied but decided that further action would not necessarily result in a conclusive case due to the complexity of the matter and the material impossibility to provide the unequivocal evidence of a breach.
So, after 1+ full year of constant investigations and multiple times additional sensors added to the car, they have "material impossibility to provide the unequivocal evidence of a breach".

And then we have the events of the past year with obviously illegal wings that result in absolutely nothing, or giving teams 9 races to adapt to new wing flexibility rules, or allowing breaching cost cap, in the first year of new regulations, by millions with the excuse that tortellini were expensive and apparently not being "not fully satisfied by it".

Ferrari was targeted and it's shameful.

EDIT: Although this post obviously reads aggressive, my intent is to simply state what my position will be in future discussions of the type and to document more explicitly what the final outcome from the FIA was, and that's VERY FAR from "they were cheating and we decided to keep it hidden" that I often hear parroted. I'm not gonna flame in the thread if there are responses here.

NoDivergence
NoDivergence
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Re: 2019 Ferrari engine saga

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They were absolutely cheating. The results on track clearly showed they were absolutely doing some shady things with the engine, and the fact that they settled is a very bad look

Dee
Dee
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Joined: 25 Jun 2020, 02:07

Re: 2019 Ferrari engine saga

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How were Ferrari targeted when the new TD introduced affected their engine performance significantly?

The FIA did not have data from an actual race but they had the theory of what was happening.

They then introduced new sensors to see fuel flow where they couldn't see it before.

Ferrari's engine performance immediately reduced after this.

Game. Set. Match.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: 2019 Ferrari engine saga

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Dee wrote:
02 Mar 2025, 11:50
How were Ferrari targeted when the new TD introduced affected their engine performance significantly?
The FIA did not have data from an actual race but they had the theory of what was happening.
They then introduced new sensors to see fuel flow where they couldn't see it before.

Ferrari's engine performance immediately reduced after this.
no it didn't
its track performance reduced

the engine's ability to turn fuel into mechanical work was unimpaired
but the match of releasable ICE work rate to the task (lap speed) was impaired
the TD (like all TDs) being a rule change pretending not to be a rule change

this was inevitable given the underlying bias (ICE energy not allowed to do things that electrical energy is allowed to do)
and those legality-inclined should consider that the peak fuel rate is far higher than their so-called 100 kg/hr limit

Cs98
Cs98
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Joined: 01 Jul 2022, 11:37

Re: 2019 Ferrari engine saga

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Far from being victims this was a complete sweetheart deal. The advantage they derived was massive as they went from having the best engine on the grid to having the worst engine within the space of a few months once the extra fuel flow sensor was put in place. Note, the maximum allowed fuel flow was always 100% clear and never up to interpretation, they simply skirted the rules. In hindsight this deal stands out as one of a kind through its complete lack of accountability (no sanctions and complete secrecy) despite a very tangible and huge advantage being gained.

AnotherAlex
AnotherAlex
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Joined: 23 Mar 2017, 17:24

Re: 2019 Ferrari engine saga

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The Ferrari approach appears to have been a very clever workaround, and just a more technically complex way achieve the same ends as the flexible fuel lines and mini reservoirs that have been employed in the past.
Certainly against the spirit of the rules but it met the legality tests as they were implemented, which, as we have seen with flexible bodywork, double diffusers, etc., is the only consideration until the FIA decide to ban it.
The sport would have benefited from the FIA taking an equally prompt interest in the burning of oil, which was explicitly against the rules (though not effectively monitored) and gave one team a comprehensive advantage for many years.

Cs98 wrote:
02 Mar 2025, 12:57
The advantage they derived was massive as they went from having the best engine on the grid to having the worst engine within the space of a few months once the extra fuel flow sensor was put in place.
The subsequent season's engine was only so bad by comparison because the FIA had insisted Ferrari make changes in addition to the extra sensor, presumably with the specific intention of hampering their performance by way of punishment for a 'breach' that they still can't prove, so not much of a sweetheart deal.

Cs98
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Re: 2019 Ferrari engine saga

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AnotherAlex wrote:
02 Mar 2025, 13:55
The Ferrari approach appears to have been a very clever workaround, and just a more technically complex way achieve the same ends as the flexible fuel lines and mini reservoirs that have been employed in the past.
Certainly against the spirit of the rules but it met the legality tests as they were implemented, which, as we have seen with flexible bodywork, double diffusers, etc., is the only consideration until the FIA decide to ban it.
The sport would have benefited from the FIA taking an equally prompt interest in the burning of oil, which was explicitly against the rules (though not effectively monitored) and gave one team a comprehensive advantage for many years.

Cs98 wrote:
02 Mar 2025, 12:57
The advantage they derived was massive as they went from having the best engine on the grid to having the worst engine within the space of a few months once the extra fuel flow sensor was put in place.
The subsequent season's engine was only so bad by comparison because the FIA had insisted Ferrari make changes in addition to the extra sensor, presumably with the specific intention of hampering their performance by way of punishment for a 'breach' that they still can't prove, so not much of a sweetheart deal.
Ah yes, Ferrari agreed to a secret punishment for a breach they did not commit :lol: Part of the secret deal was obviously an admission of what they were doing, contingent on it never being made public. As far this rumoured engine sanction, hard to confirm due to the secrecy of the deal. But if we go by the Mika Salo version of events, that they had to lower fuel flow in 2020 below 100 kg/h, you can still look at 2021 and see that there was a big drop off in their engine competitiveness. From clear best engine in 2019 to 3rd best engine in 2021. I'd say that's a pretty good deal, you got a monster illegal engine in 2018 and 2019 to mount a championship challenge, and then you got one year on the bench in 2020 without the public ever knowing what you did.

dialtone
dialtone
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Joined: 25 Feb 2019, 01:31

Re: 2019 Ferrari engine saga

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Material IMPOSSIBILITY to prove a breach

Also FIA explains why there was a settlement, they would have sued and it wasn’t in the interest of either Ferrari, FIA or the sport to have a lengthy lawsuit, especially one that they could have lost.

Seanspeed
Seanspeed
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Re: 2019 Ferrari engine saga

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Cs98 wrote:
02 Mar 2025, 12:57
Note, the maximum allowed fuel flow was always 100% clear and never up to interpretation, they simply skirted the rules.
Yes, this is how many 'grey area' exploitations in F1 work. As long as you pass the required tests, you're gonna be given the 'ok'.

We know that moveable aero is not allowed in F1 currently either, but loads of teams were/are still doing it, even in plain sight, knowing that until the FIA provided a different testing methodology, they were gonna be skirting the rules and getting away with it.

CMSMJ1
CMSMJ1
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Joined: 25 Sep 2007, 10:51
Location: Chesterfield, United Kingdom

Re: 2019 Ferrari engine saga

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If you guys really must try to litigate this again... Let's be clear that this has been done to death and the donkey has been flogged to dust

If there is new info.. Let's have a look at that.

Avoid the partisan positions eh?
IMPERATOR REX ANGLORUM

ENGINE TUNER
ENGINE TUNER
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Re: 2019 Ferrari engine saga

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NoDivergence wrote:
02 Mar 2025, 06:19
They were absolutely cheating. The results on track clearly showed they were absolutely doing some shady things with the engine, and the fact that they settled is a very bad look
When looking at GPS data and fuel used over the race it was clear to me that they were fuel cheating since 2015 when they made a huge leap from 2014 without using all of their tokens.
They were using more fuel(according to the fuel used tv graphic, and the pre race fuel declaration) while taking less time to get down the straights, in an essentially fixed fuel formula. Better traction can account for some of that, but not to the extent to which it was happening. They were using 5 to 10kg more fuel per race.
Last edited by ENGINE TUNER on 03 Mar 2025, 15:22, edited 1 time in total.

ENGINE TUNER
ENGINE TUNER
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Joined: 29 Nov 2016, 18:07

Re: 2019 Ferrari engine saga

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AnotherAlex wrote:
02 Mar 2025, 13:55
The sport would have benefited from the FIA taking an equally prompt interest in the burning of oil, which was explicitly against the rules (though not effectively monitored) and gave one team a comprehensive advantage for many years.
Oil burning was measured and regulated from day 1 of the turbo hybrid PUs. What wasn't regulated was water to air intercooler coolant burning, which only 1 team was told to stop, that same team had a couple fires in their intake manifolds, care to guess who?

purestpurist
purestpurist
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Joined: 30 Apr 2023, 07:52

Re: 2019 Ferrari engine saga

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Their massive decline in 2020 is evidence the FIA punishment was harsher than some would suggest. Personally I would've granted them some lenience because it made the stretch of races after the summer break much more exciting than they otherwise would've been. Ironically, unofficial BoP through this kind of manipulation is the most organic way to keep the championship competitive.

senja
senja
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Joined: 30 Jan 2013, 21:09

Re: 2019 Ferrari engine saga

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NoDivergence wrote:
02 Mar 2025, 06:19
They were absolutely cheating. The results on track clearly showed they were absolutely doing some shady things with the engine, and the fact that they settled is a very bad look
They absolutely did not cheat. Cheating means they are breaking the rules. They didn't break any rules. FiA added a new rule for next year that forced them to change the engine, but for 2019 they were absolutely legal.

ENGINE TUNER
ENGINE TUNER
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Joined: 29 Nov 2016, 18:07

Re: 2019 Ferrari engine saga

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senja wrote:
04 Mar 2025, 07:15
NoDivergence wrote:
02 Mar 2025, 06:19
They were absolutely cheating. The results on track clearly showed they were absolutely doing some shady things with the engine, and the fact that they settled is a very bad look
They absolutely did not cheat. Cheating means they are breaking the rules. They didn't break any rules. FiA added a new rule for next year that forced them to change the engine, but for 2019 they were absolutely legal.
They broke the max fuel flow rules clear and simple, no argument to be made about it. Max instantaneous fuel flow of 100kg/hr at any engine speed above 10.5k rpm.