Schuey to McLaren?!

RH1300S · Post 31 Aug 2005, 12:44

Had Senna not died (the World is full of "ifs".............), probably MS would not have had so many titles (any?

).

1994, would probably have gone to Senna (if Damon Hill could make it a close finish, what would have Senna have done?)

Perhaps it follows that 1995 would have fallen to Senna (DH contrived to lose this champtionship, as much as MS won it).

If, at this stage MS was not twice World Champion, then would he have gone to Ferrari with the brilliant team he arrived with?

Then, would he have continued to dominate as he has done over the last few years?

On that narrow world view alone MS would have never won a championship - but, you have to believe he would have got himself into a championship car somehow.

I still think he's a great driver, but bringing Senna into the discussion certainly raises some questions, I'll grant you that

BTW, I have only mentioned MS championship years, hence the "jump" from 1995 to Ferrari

.

manchild · Post 31 Aug 2005, 14:23

There is pile of “ifs” to choose from… not just Senna’s death.

If MS was sanctioned for bunch of illegal technical devices on Benetton and deliberate crashes with Damon Hill in 1994 & 1995 - identical maneuvers he pulled on JV in 1997 or on Mark Webber in Turkey 2005 (someone passes him inside for more than a half length of the car or even gets in front of him like JV did in 1997 and than Shuey turns into kamikaze). BTW, he did the same to Hakinnen in Macau before even entering F1.

Should I mention him being caught with completely different engine, also in his pre-F1 days.

If FIA wasn’t shaping new regulations according to Maranello demands…

If he was expelled from F1 in 1997 after what was an attempt of murder.

If Irvine and Barrichelo haven’t wasted they careers (and moral) by standing under the “red light” and giving him all of the points they could.

If FIA (Mossley) wasn’t taking points of only for Ferrari in WCC when they were caught “red-handed” so many times (Shuey wins with illegal car and than FIA says “no-no” to Ferrari but leaves points to Shuey).

If Jean Todt wasn’t member of FIA motorsport council (Senna was disqualified when marshals pushed his car after incident with Prost, Schumacher wasn’t. On same race Ralf gets penalized for crossing the white line and Shuey doesen’t. Shuey hits Coulthard from behind, attacks him in the pits afterwards and…nothing)

In a nutshell, he is the driver with most tittles but how many of them (if any) have been won honestly? Good driver with lots of illegal aids but hardly "great driver" - at least not any grater than any other driver from his generation (Mercedes baby team).

RH1300S · Post 31 Aug 2005, 14:29

Yikes - keep up the anti-Schuey rant and I might eat my words! That's why in a earlier post I say I'm not his greatest fan - all of the above (even if some of it could be called paranoia - no smoke without fire either

)

manchild · Post 31 Aug 2005, 14:58

I noticed that people who didn't like him are getting soft on him this season

What he did before can't be diminished simply because now we see him without best car and “ubermensch” performance.

Mask has been removed, no simphaty at all...

Hudsonhawk · Post 01 Sep 2005, 11:48

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

In a nutshell, he is the driver with most tittles but how many of them (if any) have been won honestly? Good driver with lots of illegal aids but hardly "great driver" - at least not any grater than any other driver from his generation (Mercedes baby team).

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

Great work !

Spencifer_Murphy · Post 01 Sep 2005, 14:46

Oh common guys, give him a break...dont get me wrong I cant stand the barst**d! lol....but you simply do not win 7 world titles if you arent a great driver...schumi is a great F1 driver...

...however, to even compare him to the likes of Senna, Stewart, Clark, Moss, Ascari or Fangio (just to name a few) is utter madness...not to mention pre-F1 GP greats like Tazio Nuvolari or Rudolf Carricola.

That said I do totally agree that he most definately DOES NOT deserve all his 7championship wins....most definately not 94 or 95.

I'd also agree that had Senna not died he probably wouldn't have won either and therefore probably wouldn't have gone to Ferrari. But I do believe a team such as Mclaren would quite happily have taken him on in 1996 had he not movedc to Ferrari. So either way schumi would have won 3...MAYBE 4 world titles without Ferrari....

and you dont do that without being a great driver. (once again i stress he CANNOT be rated alongside those such as Senna or Fangio etc.)

RH1300S · Post 01 Sep 2005, 15:33

I know I seem to be waving between two points, but I stand by what I said about the fact that MS will always pull a win out if there is the remotest chance of there being one. Also, had the first two championships had not happend (IF Senna had lived) then a top team somewhere would have picked him up I'm sure, he was obviously special. Had he gone to McLaren it could have been interesting - RD would surely not have allowed him absolute number one status, would he then have been partnered with Mika Hakkinnen (then who would have been champ

).

The prompt for this post was me pondering the Rubens Barrichello's change of job. IF Rubens teams up with Button (or at least another top class driver), will we for the first time be able to assess the form of an MS team mate properly? And, in turn get a better picture of how good he is by comparison. I know it's nearly impossible to call, but if (for example) JB & RB Team up and RB gets pasted by JB, then you might look askance at how good MS is (BTW, if JB & RB do team up, I don't see that RB would get a pasting

).

His other Team Mates were probably best described as past their best or maybe not all that good in the first place.

A retiring Nelson Piquet - in it for the money by then?
Martin Brundle - very worthy, but maybe running out of career at the time
Jos Verstappen - hmmmm
Johnny Herbert - never really had a chance did he, much as we all love him?
Eddie Irvine - welllllll..........
Rubens Barrichello - The lad seems to be pretty good

Spencifer_Murphy · Post 01 Sep 2005, 15:56

ALL valid pionts.....

I'll help you with the Rubens bit:

Rubens Barrichello - Held Back by team orders. (or now that they are banned) held back by the Teams Unconditional Love of Schumi.

manchild · Post 01 Sep 2005, 16:27

Barrichello could have been fooled once (one season) and than show his disapproval because of such treatment by the team. Same goes for Irvine. Even if he couldn’t leave due to contract, deliberate bad driving would quickly set him free. For me it is obvious that he sold his career for money without anyone pointing gun at his head...

manchild · Post 01 Sep 2005, 16:28

Barrichello could have been fooled once (one season) and than show his disapproval because of such treatment by the team. Same goes for Irvine. Even if he couldn’t leave due to contract, deliberate bad driving would quickly set him free. For me it is obvious that he sold his career for money without anyone pointing gun at his head...

DaveKillens · Post 01 Sep 2005, 18:59

Reubens knew exactly what he was getting into when he signed as Shu's teammate. I feel no sympathy, nay, I feel some dusgust towards Reubens for compromising his career and racing ethics for what had to be a lot of money.
As far as Shu, I have never liked the man. But that can't hide the fact that he is the best Formula One driver money can buy. His performances this year in a definitely uncompetitive car and tires proves his stellar abilities.
Yea, the man definitely has flaws, he definitely isn't perfect. He is the most fined and penalized driver in F1 history. In some circles, he's considered a "dirty" driver.
Manchild, I'm one of those who have gone "soft" against Shu, probably because I'm beginning to realize some details. No one works as hard as he does. As well, he took a pathetic (but cash rich) team from a joke to one of the greatest teams in racing history. Agreed he has talented people working with him. But he is the Sun, the center of it all. Everything they have accomplished is a direct result of his actions and motivations.
But when you get past the glamour of being a Formula One driver, of having more money than some small nations, and being almost a God within Ferrari, he's a human being, just like you and I. Ever since the death of his mother, I have viewed him in a different light, one with more respect as a human being. He has feelings, he feels just like you and I do.
In my eyes, Micheal Schumacher is not the greatest driver of all time, he isn't even in the top five in my list. But he definitely made the best of what he had. The political climate, the rules, the competition, and the cars he drove.
I doubt that he could have even come close in accomplishments if he had been driving in another era, like the 50's or 60's.
But this is today, and the best driver for today is Shu, love him or hate him.

manchild · Post 01 Sep 2005, 20:20

I'm not trying to change anyone’s opinion here, but there are several characteristics that true F1 champion must have and which MS doesn’t.

He has scores, statistics and records but he isn’t a gentleman driver – sort of modern knight what F1 driver was and still is expected to be. Walking over corpses and willingness to commit any kind of fraud in order to achieve score is his main visible characteristic.

He might have the statistics but reminds me more of Britney Spears than of Roberta Flack.

That is my point. They both sing, but Britney is artificially created, money-making silicone bimbo with computers, internet and MTV backing her up. She probably made more money and won more prizes, chart records than Roberta Flack but the way she did is what makes a difference.

Perhaps MS is “the best driver money can buy” but I’ll always have more respect for drivers like James Hunt who walked into flames and rescued Ronnie Peterson than for MS who passes over and over again near his brothers car even though this one is obviously very hurt (Indianapolis 2004).

I like and respect noble heroes and despise ruthless machines.

Scuderia_Russ · Post 01 Sep 2005, 23:03

manchild wrote:Perhaps MS is “the best driver money can buy” but I’ll always have more respect for drivers like James Hunt who walked into flames and rescued Ronnie Peterson than for MS who passes over and over again near his brothers car even though this one is obviously very hurt (Indianapolis 2004).

What could he do that trained medical staff couldn't?!

manchild · Post 02 Sep 2005, 00:21

Scuderia_Russ wrote:What could he do that trained medical staff couldn't?!

He could have sorted out his priorities after 5 titles, pull over, be a man, show a bit humanity and concern. I don’t believe that any decent person would pass by brother's heavily wrecked car without instantly stopping - racing or everyday traffic. Ralf was seriously hurt and he knew that just like everyone else who watched it on TV since he couldn’t leave the car for 15-20 minutes or more.

BTW, he could have gone to Senna’s funeral too but since he raced even though his mother just died than it doesn’t surprise me. Same goes for Ralf.

It is the human, emotional side that lacks Michael in great amount. But… if he had a bit of emotions inside rather than ego and possessiveness than he wouldn’t have achieved what he did because some of that would prevent him from doing everything that he found necessary.

Perhaps I could understand such behavior from young rookie but not from someone who had several titles in his pocket and ability to act freely according to his own beliefs.

James Hunt could have stand aside and watch trained firefighters hesitating to go into flames...

Scuderia_Russ · Post 02 Sep 2005, 14:00

I know i'm flogging a dead horse here but Hunt lived through death in F1 and knew the realities all too well at that time in the sport. The contemporary F1 car is the safest it has ever been. If Ralph wasn't getting out of the car but had his visor open i probably would have assumed that he was winded, especially with the Ferrari pit wall telling him that his brother was ok. How do you know that he wasn't concerned?!And like i said, what could he do to help but get in the way of trained mediacl staff? Nothing! You talk like you have known him personally for years. The only people that know him well enough to judge him as you have are his close family and friends. I did not know that he didn't attend Senna's funeral, but what would it have achieved. Forget about who Senna was for a moment. I wouldn't haver gone to Senna's funeral...he isn't going to mine is he? I don't know why Schumacher didn't attend, maybe like me he believes it to be hypocritical when one is not religious. The only funerals i will ever attend will be that of my mother, father and brother... and that will not be for either their or my benefit, it will be for the benefit of my remaing family. Might sound harsh but that's me. In my opinion you cannnot make comprehensive judgments on sportspersons from what you see in their sporting life.