2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Wouter]

Max said the new parts didn't work as expected

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Where did he say that?

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I took it from here, but looks like Autoracer misinterpreted what Verstappen said. I don't think Verstappen was referring to the new parts specifically when he said they were trying "different things" on the car and that it "didn't work" - to me that sounds like they were trying different setup windows

https://autoracer.it/it/red-bull-versta ... p-giappone

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[Luscion]

From AMuS
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -red-bull/

Four red flags in the second practice session cost the teams 38 minutes of driving time. The interruptions also claimed the long runs as victims. And during the fast laps between accidents and grass fires, much depended on how the drivers navigated through traffic and could complete their preparation laps.
So the picture is somewhat distorted. As a substitute for the missed race simulations in the afternoon, the long runs from the morning had to serve. The picture here is relatively clear. McLaren is setting the pace in Suzuka as well. They are followed by Mercedes and Ferrari. Red Bull continues to face major difficulties. The white-painted cars were completely out of balance.
Neither the basic setup, in which the engineers had placed great hopes, nor the setup correction in the afternoon worked. In contrast, the sister cars from Toro Rosso again showed strong early form. This is still impressive even knowing that Isack Hadjar and Liam Lawson had increased their engine power for their fast laps.


The general form of the Red Bull RB21 is concerning, however. The car alternately falls from understeer into oversteer. Verstappen reported on the radio that it felt as if the car was bending. The strong sliding of the Red Bulls drove tire wear upward.
Sporting director Helmut Marko was annoyed: "Whenever the simulator celebrates, the basic setup at the track doesn't fit. We should check our procedures in the simulator." The projections from the virtual world had suggested a setup that should make the RB21 three tenths faster. The opposite was the case. Even after the vehicle setup was rebuilt during the lunch break. Verstappen summarized: "On this track you need confidence in the car. Unfortunately, I didn't have that."
Why is Toro Rosso so fast?
Toro Rosso surprised again. Isack Hadjar and returnee Liam Lawson landed in third and fifth places. Red Bull's sister car presented itself in excellent form for the third time in a row. The car has been very well balanced for all track types so far. Helmut Marko, however, puts a question mark: "They turned up the engine power more than Red Bull. That has an influence on the lap times."

[Emag]

Toro Rosso was definitely running higher engine modes, so don't expect them to beat Max tomorrow. RedBull didn't look as bad as the final FP2 standings show. The only non-pu mode / straight line deficit was degner 2 and the spoon curve, where Piastri pulled almost 2 tenths on everyone.

In relation to the fight for pole / top positions, Degner 2 could be considered a bit concerning though, because they had a very low minimum speed there. Probably suffering from understeer.

[ringo]

I wonder if the car is sensitive to the wind. Suzuka is a very narrow venue therefore the wind does channel itself through the whole track very abruptly. The flexing Max was feelings could be the suspensions of the front and rear doing two different things due to the wind?

[Sergej]

From AMuS
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -red-bull/

"Neither the basic setup, in which the engineers had placed great hopes, nor the setup correction in the afternoon worked."

"Whenever the simulator celebrates, the basic setup at the track doesn't fit. We should check our procedures in the simulator."

"The projections from the virtual world had suggested a setup that should make the RB21 three tenths faster. The opposite was the case."


man, they are looking like amateurs !

[FNTC]

If this stuff continues I wouldn't be surprised if Max wants to switch to VCARB for one race weekend to see how fast he can be in that car.

[Zynerji]

If this stuff continues I wouldn't be surprised if Max wants to switch to VCARB for one race weekend to see how fast he can be in that car.

The drama that would ensue!

[ringo]

If this stuff continues I wouldn't be surprised if Max wants to switch to VCARB for one race weekend to see how fast he can be in that car.

Do VCARB use the same wind tunnel and tools?

It's interesting the situation. Maybe they should switch the mechanics and track engineers and let the VCARB guys setup the car.

[ispano6]

Yuki's first timed lap in FP2 on softs was a 1:29.378 but was posted right after the RED FLAG and thus wasn't counted as a timed lap. Not bad considering in that first run he was faster than Russell by -0.288.

With that time it places him 14th between Bortoletto and Ocon.

[AR3-GP]

Yuki's first timed lap in FP2 on softs was a 1:29.378 but was posted right after the RED FLAG and thus wasn't counted as a timed lap. Not bad considering in that first run he was faster than Russell by -0.288.

With that time it places him 14th between Bortoletto and Ocon.

Russell did that lap on hard tires. The car is simply slow.

[Paa]

Even if they somehow improve a lot overnight, and grab the podium or something this weekend still wouldn't be positive.
1. This is supposed to be a strong track for Max/Red Bull.
2. There is a trend of being off with the initial setup.
3. Yuki also confirmed that simulator is nothing like the real car.
4. Car is slow.

[AR3-GP]

Even if they somehow improve a lot overnight, and grab the podium or something this weekend still wouldn't be positive.
1. This is supposed to be a strong track for Max/Red Bull.
2. There is a trend of being off with the initial setup.
3. Yuki also confirmed that simulator is nothing like the real car.
4. Car is slow.

The lack of correlation brings into question how any development from the factory can be trusted for the future. The drivers are investing all this time in the simulator and the real car is not the same. In my opinion, a team simply does not recover from this in a season. Mclaren was behind but had good correlation. There is simply too much for Red Bull to fix and too many cars ahead. I don't expect much in 5 races time. The others will have moved the goalpost further.

[Paa]

Even if they somehow improve a lot overnight, and grab the podium or something this weekend still wouldn't be positive.
1. This is supposed to be a strong track for Max/Red Bull.
2. There is a trend of being off with the initial setup.
3. Yuki also confirmed that simulator is nothing like the real car.
4. Car is slow.

The lack of correlation brings into question how any development from the factory can be trusted for the future. The drivers are investing all this time in the simulator and the real car is not the same. In my opinion, a team simply does not recover from this in a season. Mclaren was behind but had good correlation. There is simply too much for Red Bull to fix and too many cars ahead. I don't expect much in 5 races time. The others will have moved the goalpost further.

I really don't understand this btw. Building a wind-tunnel takes years, I understand that.
But how can they have a subpar simulator for years is beyond me. I really start to think that 2023 was a curse in disguise. It feels like that their performance masked so many of their core problems and they become somewhat lazy and pretentious. Then it took them very long time to even acknowledge some of the issues. And it feels to me that they are still not trying to solve it from the very base, but rather trying to put simple quickfixes.

They should invest time and energy to re-build the team and if they don't start it right away, Max will walk and rightfully. Probably they are already late.

[AR3-GP]

Even if they somehow improve a lot overnight, and grab the podium or something this weekend still wouldn't be positive.
1. This is supposed to be a strong track for Max/Red Bull.
2. There is a trend of being off with the initial setup.
3. Yuki also confirmed that simulator is nothing like the real car.
4. Car is slow.

The lack of correlation brings into question how any development from the factory can be trusted for the future. The drivers are investing all this time in the simulator and the real car is not the same. In my opinion, a team simply does not recover from this in a season. Mclaren was behind but had good correlation. There is simply too much for Red Bull to fix and too many cars ahead. I don't expect much in 5 races time. The others will have moved the goalpost further.

I really don't understand this btw. Building a wind-tunnel takes years, I understand that.
But how can they have a subpar simulator for years is beyond me. I really start to think that 2023 was a curse in disguise. It feels like that their performance masked so many of their core problems and they become somewhat lazy and pretentious. Then it took them very long time to even acknowledge some of the issues. And it feels to me that they are still not trying to solve it from the very base, but rather trying to put simple quickfixes.

They should invest time and energy to re-build the team and if they don't start it right away, Max will walk and rightfully. Probably they are already late.

The simulator must rely on the aerodynamic predictions from CFD and the windtunnel. So, if there is a discrepancy between the wind tunnel/CFD and the real world, it will also disrupt the simulator reliability. There may also be errors in the simulation of the mechanical behaviors (errors in mass distribution, suspension modeling, etc compared to real world). There are many ways to add up to an unreliable simulator. They likely suffer from some combination of these errors. Not good in short term or long term.

The "miracle" package that they hope to bring in 5 races will likely turn out to behave differently when it hits the track unless they understand where the correlation issues come from.

[HPD]