This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
The technical directive will likely work in Red Bull's favor, as it will make Mclaren more difficult to drive, so driver skill will be even more important + it's good for Verstappen. Also Jeddah is a much more front limited track with many very fast and flowing corners, it will suit the RB21 much better.
It's not just Mclaren that will have to change their wing. The Mercedes front wing moves as much as or even more than the Mclaren.
Seems that Russell is about to get a new contract at Mercedes so that's means closed doors for Max, which in turn means Max to AM.
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That rumor comes from Roberto Chinchero from Motorsport Italy and is reposted by other F1 sites.
I think Toto doesn't take action so soon after what happened yesterday with the RB21.
. https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-me ... /10713365/
Max is staying at Red Bull for 2026. If he wanted to leave, he would have done it by now.
2026 landscape would provide a better avenue for an informed decision, rather than jumping the ship now.
If Mercedes has the edge in engine for 2026 as it's rumored and George wins the WDC, it would close the door, like it happened to Alonso when he rejected the Red Bull offer in 2008 and then Seb got the opportunity and the rest became history. That's the risk.
"The problems are known," Horner told RacingNews365, among others. "The solutions we see in our tools don't match the circuit. We have to find out. Why don't our tools match the circuit? And if you have to deal with such a problem, you have to undo it, of course. We have a strong technical team that has built some great cars over the last few years and I am confident that they will get to the bottom of this issue. Our tools simply don't match the track. Then you get to the point where you're turning two different watches."
Horner agrees that this problem was also reflected in 2024. "It's the same. The wind tunnel has sent us in a direction that doesn't show the same on the track. Then you end up with a mishmash between what your tools tell you and what the track data shows. Now we collect data on the track and that should lead to a solution. You have to understand your weaknesses. The problem is also that we are at the end of a set of regulations. Profit margins are marginal. We see shortcomings in our current wind tunnel'
Doesn't sound too promising sadly, that wind tunnel is a serious problem now. The poor correlation between WindTunnel and simulation tools has been very obvious, WT problems can be excused but the simulator itself they should have done a better job fixing ever since it showed problem in 23 with the kerbs and 24 with balance. MK wasted so much time by not giving them site permission but RBR should have been more proactive in replacing the wind tunnel. 2026 mid-season for a new wind tunnel but hey at least it will be state of the art then.
Wind tunnels don’t become obsolete overnight. As long as the sensors and calibration are kept up-to-date, and the testing protocols are solid, an older tunnel can still produce high-quality data. The physical structure just channels air; the precision comes from the measurement tools, which are modernized. The wind tunnel does have some limitations—for example, they can't run it much during the winter when the temperature is low—but its accuracy should still be good enough. This limitation is known, but teams usually work around it in their schedule. This wind tunnel was still good enough for Red Bull to create some dominant cars.
What I think happened is that Red Bull simply developed an aero package that is too complex—more complex than those of other teams. McLaren's concept is simpler and works better. This complexity is causing Red Bull problems. Red Bull’s design philosophy under Adrian Newey has often pushed boundaries, but complexity brings risk. If you over-optimize for theoretical performance, it can bite back when real-world conditions (like track variability, tire behavior, etc.) don’t line up. The aero team pushed the concept set by Newey too far. They aimed for big aerodynamic gains, which were confirmed by CFD simulations, but in reality, it caused unexpected problems. Meanwhile, McLaren has a more modular, adaptable concept, make them more consistent.
Well the good thing is that they've confirmed they're bringing a significant upgrade at around Imola. If the new upgraded floor simplifies airflow and helps stabilize performance across different conditions, it could absolutely bring them back into championship contention. The season is still long, it's still not too late.
"The problems are known," Horner told RacingNews365, among others. "The solutions we see in our tools don't match the circuit. We have to find out. Why don't our tools match the circuit? And if you have to deal with such a problem, you have to undo it, of course. We have a strong technical team that has built some great cars over the last few years and I am confident that they will get to the bottom of this issue. Our tools simply don't match the track. Then you get to the point where you're turning two different watches."
Horner agrees that this problem was also reflected in 2024. "It's the same. The wind tunnel has sent us in a direction that doesn't show the same on the track. Then you end up with a mishmash between what your tools tell you and what the track data shows. Now we collect data on the track and that should lead to a solution. You have to understand your weaknesses. The problem is also that we are at the end of a set of regulations. Profit margins are marginal. We see shortcomings in our current wind tunnel'
Doesn't sound too promising sadly, that wind tunnel is a serious problem now. The poor correlation between WindTunnel and simulation tools has been very obvious, WT problems can be excused but the simulator itself they should have done a better job fixing ever since it showed problem in 23 with the kerbs and 24 with balance. MK wasted so much time by not giving them site permission but RBR should have been more proactive in replacing the wind tunnel. 2026 mid-season for a new wind tunnel but hey at least it will be state of the art then.
So you can write 2026 right off, basically.
Alot of people had written RBR off for 22 regs too. Maybe the current wind tunnel is not good for extracting the final tenths due to its limitations under yaw etc. but good enough in the beginning when margins are bigger. There's no telling which team will come out on top, loads of people are crowning Merc/MCL even Aston to a lesser extent as the big winners of 26 already, despite there being 3 big variables - aero/chassis, engine and fuel, any of which could trip up team. It's all guessing at this point, using historical data as proof of the future.
But that was the message coming out of the team after Japan, too, where sources indicated that it felt only about 25% of the balance problems it had hoped to cure from the RB20 had been sorted so far.
The road ahead to getting on top of everything is long, with Verstappen not too confident that there will be an immediate solution to the weaknesses.
Asked if the team knew what the answer was, he said: "You'll have to ask them. I don't know...some bits are coming but not at the moment."
What I think happened is that Red Bull simply developed an aero package that is too complex—more complex than those of other teams. McLaren's concept is simpler and works better. This complexity is causing Red Bull problems. Red Bull’s design philosophy under Adrian Newey has often pushed boundaries, but complexity brings risk. If you over-optimize for theoretical performance, it can bite back when real-world conditions (like track variability, tire behavior, etc.) don’t line up. The aero team pushed the concept set by Newey too far. They aimed for big aerodynamic gains, which were confirmed by CFD simulations, but in reality, it caused unexpected problems. Meanwhile, McLaren has a more modular, adaptable concept, make them more consistent.
I agree fully. Ground effect is clearly just too difficult to manage, which has caused complex solutions to not translate well to the track.
Red Bull has always had clearly the most complex floors of any team. Ferrari also strated developing some really complex floors in mid 2024 and hit the brick wall.
Ferrari only fixed their performance when they masisve simplified their floor design by getting rid of most of the really complex geometry.
I suspect that the new McLaren is suffering from a similar issue to the mid-2023 RB19, likely due to the floor getting too complex to be accurately replicated in the wind tunnel, which is why Norris is struggling with predictability from lap to lap. It almost looks like the beginnings of what happened to Perez in late 2023 (which we now know was down to the car). Piastri still seems comfortable, but that could come down to setup. I suspect the McLaren will keep getting more and more difficult to set up as the season progresses. The question is if it will get bad enough for others to catch up or not.
The Grand Prix in Saudi-Arabia marks the third round of the triple header. Max Verstappen looks ahead to the race in Jeddah and says: “Bahrain was quite a difficult weekend for us and didn’t really go our way at all. We had some issues that set us back and we still have a lot of work to do on the car to get us where we need to be.”
Max adds: “However, last year Jeddah was a good track for us and it is a proper high speed semi street circuit which is fun to drive. Typically, there is less tyre degradation at this circuit, so it naturally should be a better race for us. We have a final push with this being the third race and final weekend of the triple header so hopefully we can find more pace and bring out a performance similar to Japan.”
We've got a facility that is a 60-year-old wind tunnel. It is a relic of the Cold War. It's been good enough to produce some fantastic cars for us over the years. But it has its limitations. So anything under five degrees [centigrade], we can't run it. Anything over 25 degrees, it becomes pretty unstable.”
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That rumor comes from Roberto Chinchero from Motorsport Italy and is reposted by other F1 sites.
I think Toto doesn't take action so soon after what happened yesterday with the RB21.
. https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-me ... /10713365/
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Toto made his decision last year with Antonelli. George is getting re-signed by Mercedes, end of story.
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Nice, you have talked to Toto? Toto told you he will resigne Russell?
No, I just know he's not getting Max. I would've fully agreed if Toto would sign Max, but it's extremely unlikely now. Plus, Max is looking to stay for Redbull in 2026 anyway.
So round 4. A horrible start of the season and a "horror" weekend in Bahrein.
Yet only 1 pt deficit after rond 3 and now 8 pt. 1/3 of a DNF. Less than the point difference between 1st and 3rd in one race. If Norris and Piastri take eachother out in T1 this weekend, Max can keep this pace for another 8 races.
We can discuss omens all we want, but factually, there is no real problemen yet.
We've got a facility that is a 60-year-old wind tunnel. It is a relic of the Cold War. It's been good enough to produce some fantastic cars for us over the years. But it has its limitations. So anything under five degrees [centigrade], we can't run it. Anything over 25 degrees, it becomes pretty unstable.”
Why didn't they build a new wind tunnel years ago, before the budget cap era?
Permission issues from MK
The cheapest sort of pride is national pride, every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.
We can discuss omens all we want, but factually, there is no real problemen yet.
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??? "No real problem."
Yes no REAL problems yet. An 8pt deficit with 20 races to go is not a reason to throw in the towel. We expect the problem to get worse based on our speculation that the car will not be good enough. Omens.
We have at least 7 cars fighting for the podium and at least another 5 taking shots at it. This might be a very different season than the last.
Piastri and Norris ending up in the tyres together seems unavoidable to me.
Last edited by Henk_v on 16 Apr 2025, 12:15, edited 1 time in total.
