2025 McLaren F1 Team

[AR3-GP]

I personally believe the Horner show and tell with the pictures after the race in Jeddah was a facade to distract attention away from the numerous issues facing Red Bull at the minute for example how they are a one man team who are heavily reliant on Verstappen and the issues they have with wind tunnel correlation which the RB guys have hilariously called him out for because they reckon they don’t have correlation issues but are using the same wind tunnel… oops.

Lando said Red Bull had the fastest car last time out (and several here say Red Bull is equally competitive all along) and Mclaren isn't dominant. Red Bull have seemingly managed to do that without Adrian Newey (Aston) and without Rob Marshall (Mclaren). So what issues are Red Bull actually facing to deflect from?

This
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/horne ... /10713866/

Yes I know about the windtunnel discrepancy, but many here and elsewhere say they are just as competitive as Mclaren and definitely not a tractor or a Haas. So what consequential thing is Red Bull deflecting from? Fighting with Mclaren without Adrian Newey, without Rob Marshall, without a windtunnel... Life is good right? Some here have said Red Bull are bluffing of downplaying as gamesmanship. So maybe complaining about the windtunnel is also some gamesmanship. After all, despite the "problems" that they declare, they are right there with Mclaren, only 12 points off the WDC lead, and could have been leading if Max just had a better start in Jeddah.

[Jurgen von Diaz]

I personally believe the Horner show and tell with the pictures after the race in Jeddah was a facade to distract attention away from the numerous issues facing Red Bull at the minute for example how they are a one man team who are heavily reliant on Verstappen and the issues they have with wind tunnel correlation which the RB guys have hilariously called him out for because they reckon they don’t have correlation issues but are using the same wind tunnel… oops.

Lando said Red Bull had the fastest car last time out (and several here say Red Bull is equally competitive all along) and Mclaren isn't dominant. Red Bull have seemingly managed to do that without Adrian Newey (Aston) and without Rob Marshall (Mclaren). So what issues are Red Bull actually facing to deflect from?

Norris is bluffing; he just lacks skill. Piastri said they have the quickest car. On a good day, Red Bull has two cars scoring points. On a bad day, McLaren has two cars only scoring points but outside of the podium.

[mwillems]

I am fairly certain the wing this year flexes less than last year, but it's not like the current one is winning any awards in rigidity. In any case, delving into arguments on who will be hurt the most by the Spain TD is just pure guesswork and speculative IMO. It all depends on how prepared teams are for it, but in any case I would expect RedBull to be impacted the less.

If you want to directly correlate loss from Spain TD with the amount of flex that each team's front wings currently exhibit, then in an order from least affected to most affected it would be like this :

1 - RedBull
2 - Ferrari
3 = 4 McLaren / Mercedes

But you never know how well each team is preparing for the TD and how impactful to the performance the flexing front wing is to each concept. Although it may be safe to assume that the biggest change will be seen on teams which currently exhibit the most amount of flexing, it is not correct to assume they're going to lose performance by the same degree their front wings will lose flexibility. Not too long to go to find out anyway.

There are no changes to the front wing since last year, that i can see.

Either there was a change last year or there hasn't been one. The wings require more than a bit of extra carbon stiffness so I don't think they could sneak a change in without it being noticed.

The last wing change was at Vegas and was designed to allow an extended front wing flap. This could be a pseudonym for wing strengthening.

Not that I’m as good at spotting the differences like I used to be but I thought they do have a new wing for 2025. I’ve seen a few comparisons on Instagram and the shape of the top elements are different however I’m not sure if the 2024 wing they used for the comparison was the same wing raced in Abu Dhabi.

There was no need for any of the teams to describe the changes to the car which have been made from end of 24 to the beginning of the 25 season in Australia with the car presentation submissions and also as you know if the front wing shape stays the same but they have reduced the amount of flex this too would not be needed to be disclosed during the season with said submissions.

True. I didn't see any differences in the wing at the start of the season, it looked like last years. But it could have been strengthened then. But other than a more extreme AoA at times, I haven't seen much different. The flexing doesn't just come from the thickness of the flaps, so i would expect to see more changes, just like when flexing wings were introduced, they looked different. But perhaps they didn't really need to do much.

[CjC]

This is how bad I am at noticing these days @mwillems
I was aware that Mclaren brought a new diffuser to Saudi, I then check on Saturday if they both decided to run the new diffuser which I confirmed to myself- turns out I was wrong

Updated diffuser not raced:
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/mcla ... explained/

Good news about upgrades being on the car for Miami

[mwillems]

This is how bad I am at noticing these days @mwillems
I was aware that Mclaren brought a new diffuser to Saudi, I then check on Saturday if they both decided to run the new diffuser which I confirmed to myself- turns out I was wrong

Updated diffuser not raced:
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/mcla ... explained/

Good news about upgrades being on the car for Miami

My eyes are rubbish these days so there may be differences. I'm relying in part from observations in the car thread and if I recall it was observed to be an unchanged wing.

That said, here's Stella saying that they don't need to change much and they'll be introducing small changes at Spain.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... rea-stella

[CjC]

This is how bad I am at noticing these days @mwillems
I was aware that Mclaren brought a new diffuser to Saudi, I then check on Saturday if they both decided to run the new diffuser which I confirmed to myself- turns out I was wrong

Updated diffuser not raced:
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/mcla ... explained/

Good news about upgrades being on the car for Miami

My eyes are rubbish these days so there may be differences. I'm relying in part from observations in the car thread and if I recall it was observed to be an unchanged wing.

That said, here's Stella saying that they don't need to change much and they'll be introducing small changes at Spain.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... rea-stella

That was a nice re-read.
Everything he said about the performance of the car has been true so far, so we’ll have to take his word for it about the small changes required to comply with the new TD

[BMMR61]

I personally believe the Horner show and tell with the pictures after the race in Jeddah was a facade to distract attention away from the numerous issues facing Red Bull at the minute for example how they are a one man team who are heavily reliant on Verstappen and the issues they have with wind tunnel correlation which the RB guys have hilariously called him out for because they reckon they don’t have correlation issues but are using the same wind tunnel… oops.

Lando said Red Bull had the fastest car last time out (and several here say Red Bull is equally competitive all along) and Mclaren isn't dominant. Red Bull have seemingly managed to do that without Adrian Newey (Aston) and without Rob Marshall (Mclaren). So what issues are Red Bull actually facing to deflect from?

Where do you start? This is a McLaren thread and the Red Bull issues discussed are their flexi wing allegations as well as the charade around the "unfair" 5 second penalty. You could add "emergency meetings" with Vertsappen's manager, turnover of key staff and drivers. It just seems that Horner is continually stirring some issue to deflect and to disrupt others and these two are the current ones. McLaren haven't needed to worry about any of them because they lack substance. It's a pity that Zak sometimes feels the need to react the way he does. I may be proven wrong but the Spanish GP rule change won't produce any major changes in the pecking order. Won't stop Horner from fresh claims though and there's plenty of fans and pundits who will fire the shots for him. Life in F1 goes on and some things don't change.

[AR3-GP]

I personally believe the Horner show and tell with the pictures after the race in Jeddah was a facade to distract attention away from the numerous issues facing Red Bull at the minute for example how they are a one man team who are heavily reliant on Verstappen and the issues they have with wind tunnel correlation which the RB guys have hilariously called him out for because they reckon they don’t have correlation issues but are using the same wind tunnel… oops.

Lando said Red Bull had the fastest car last time out (and several here say Red Bull is equally competitive all along) and Mclaren isn't dominant. Red Bull have seemingly managed to do that without Adrian Newey (Aston) and without Rob Marshall (Mclaren). So what issues are Red Bull actually facing to deflect from?

Where do you start? This is a McLaren thread and the Red Bull issues discussed are their flexi wing allegations as well as the charade around the "unfair" 5 second penalty. You could add "emergency meetings" with Vertsappen's manager, turnover of key staff and drivers. It just seems that Horner is continually stirring some issue to deflect and to disrupt others and these two are the current ones. McLaren haven't needed to worry about any of them because they lack substance. It's a pity that Zak sometimes feels the need to react the way he does. I may be proven wrong but the Spanish GP rule change won't produce any major changes in the pecking order. Won't stop Horner from fresh claims though and there's plenty of fans and pundits who will fire the shots for him. Life in F1 goes on and some things don't change.

Not the point of that post.

[BMMR61]

Lando said Red Bull had the fastest car last time out (and several here say Red Bull is equally competitive all along) and Mclaren isn't dominant. Red Bull have seemingly managed to do that without Adrian Newey (Aston) and without Rob Marshall (Mclaren). So what issues are Red Bull actually facing to deflect from?

Where do you start? This is a McLaren thread and the Red Bull issues discussed are their flexi wing allegations as well as the charade around the "unfair" 5 second penalty. You could add "emergency meetings" with Vertsappen's manager, turnover of key staff and drivers. It just seems that Horner is continually stirring some issue to deflect and to disrupt others and these two are the current ones. McLaren haven't needed to worry about any of them because they lack substance. It's a pity that Zak sometimes feels the need to react the way he does. I may be proven wrong but the Spanish GP rule change won't produce any major changes in the pecking order. Won't stop Horner from fresh claims though and there's plenty of fans and pundits who will fire the shots for him. Life in F1 goes on and some things don't change.

Not the point of that post.

Yeah, actually what is your point?

You asked what issues Horner (the oracle of Red Bull LOL) needs to deflect from. Read my reply. I'll simplify into bullet points;

Driver turmoil
His seeming need to agree with his driver's ridiculous views of on track issues
Wildly inconsistent car performance
His nemesis Zak's team gaining the ascendency - they must be cheating (X,Y,Z unsubstantiated reasons)

This guy represents just 1 of 10 teams yet is responsible for over 50% of disputes and controversies. I guess it's just coincidental!

Here's another jibe just reported "McLaren will be nowhere after Barcelona".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmQhyvJZVr0

[BMMR61]

This is how bad I am at noticing these days @mwillems
I was aware that Mclaren brought a new diffuser to Saudi, I then check on Saturday if they both decided to run the new diffuser which I confirmed to myself- turns out I was wrong

Updated diffuser not raced:
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/mcla ... explained/

Good news about upgrades being on the car for Miami

My eyes are rubbish these days so there may be differences. I'm relying in part from observations in the car thread and if I recall it was observed to be an unchanged wing.

That said, here's Stella saying that they don't need to change much and they'll be introducing small changes at Spain.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... rea-stella

There's no reason to believe there aren't longer term goals for the new "discarded" floor and diffuser. As The Race authors said. Miami may be a target for running it in the race, with only one FP there would be good reason to gather data on it in advance of it's use on a slow corner track. If I recall they were running a bit of flow viz in early practice so every reason to see this as getting ahead of the evolution. Last year all the parts introduced generally seemed to work and part of this is not rushing things into service before they're fully evaluated.

[mwillems]

This is how bad I am at noticing these days @mwillems
I was aware that Mclaren brought a new diffuser to Saudi, I then check on Saturday if they both decided to run the new diffuser which I confirmed to myself- turns out I was wrong

Updated diffuser not raced:
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/mcla ... explained/

Good news about upgrades being on the car for Miami

My eyes are rubbish these days so there may be differences. I'm relying in part from observations in the car thread and if I recall it was observed to be an unchanged wing.

That said, here's Stella saying that they don't need to change much and they'll be introducing small changes at Spain.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... rea-stella

There's no reason to believe there aren't longer term goals for the new "discarded" floor and diffuser. As The Race authors said. Miami may be a target for running it in the race, with only one FP there would be good reason to gather data on it in advance of it's use on a slow corner track. If I recall they were running a bit of flow viz in early practice so every reason to see this as getting ahead of the evolution. Last year all the parts introduced generally seemed to work and part of this is not rushing things into service before they're fully evaluated.

I'm not sure what you mean, it's just an old article talking about changes for front and rear wings, saying that the rear wing changes will be ready for Australia and Front Wing changes ready for Spain. This was on the back of a conversation where some thought the wing was stiffer. Certainly at testing and the first race there was no spain compliant wing, but they still might have done something to it. But on face value, looking at all the pics, the wing looked identical to last years and nothing has been presented on the car submissions. The rear wing still flexes quite a bit, it's just the slot gap not opening. So I can't see much of an argument to say they'd have had to stiffen the front after the rear changes and I doubt they'd limit their front wing flex until they have to. But, you never know, maybe this concept runs better with less flex.

Certainly there will be changes coming at Spain, but since Stella has been correct about the changes not impacting us with both of the rear wing changes, if he says there is little for us to do for Spain then I see no reason to doubt it.

Edit: I wasn't replying about the article CJC posted but I realise this was what you were talking about. More of a reply for CJC.

However, bear in mind that there may be an agreement for parts to be released only when available to both cars, and this can easily be the reason for not releasing parts yet.

[AR3-GP]

I'm not sure what you mean, it's just an old article talking about changes for front and rear wings, saying that the rear wing changes will be ready for Australia and Front Wing changes ready for Spain. This was on the back of a conversation where some thought the wing was stiffer. Certainly at testing and the first race there was no spain compliant wing, but they still might have done something to it. But on face value, looking at all the pics, the wing looked identical to last years and nothing has been presented on the car submissions.

If Mclaren wanted to stiffen the wing, they would just change the carbon layup. They wouldn't need to declare anything and it would be physically indistinguishable in the garage. It is possible that a Spain compliant wing would be paired with a different aerodynamic approach but that doesn't have to be the case.

[mwillems]

I'm not sure they'd stiffen it if they don't need to. I'd need to look at the older wings but the transition from non flex to flex gave a visibly different front wing, IIRC.

In any case, Stella himself says that the changes will come at race 9, this was said at testing, but you never know how true that is but he seems to be honest when he makes these statements. Any changes since then would need to be declared.

[De Wet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn-nBA-WWyU


Interesting video.

[AR3-GP]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn-nBA-WWyU


Interesting video.

This could be part of why why Mclaren has a bit more drag than others when the DRS is open. Drag comes from many areas, but if they are using flow energy to cool the tires in a more deliberate way than other teams, then its like having another radiator. It consumes energy and creates drag.

I also think it is the “thing” Stella said Mclaren discovered in Miami last year, but didn’t want anyone to look at it. It was a peculiar interview. I haven’t been able to find it again.