Scuderia McLaren

[nudger]

im sorry, but he was asked about what he thought of kimi, as was kimi was asked what he thought of going to mclaren....what do you expect them to say?
i dont argue for one moment that there have been discussions...as i have said, santander were the ones who raised the issue....but that is a long way from concluding that mclaren want kimi as their driver next year. and if you read the current stories, its already moved on now to where he might be going to red bull.

[Raptor22]

There is speculation they are planning to purchase the entire engine division. That would include the foundry and the designs most likely with personnel included. They would be able to forge their own engines for F1 and the road car in-house, similar to Ferrari.

Considering what's actually happened, that would make sense. McLaren's collaborations with Mercedes on road cars seem to have ceased completely, Mercedes wanted more control that McLaren wasn't going to give them, Ron Dennis has gone off to establish McLaren as a serious automotive maker without any help from Mercedes whatsoever and it's virtually an open secret that Mercedes is going to make Brawn the Mercedes F1 team. Whatever any of them says, you can join some serious dots from that.

In addition to the McLaren/Mercedes relationship cooling off you've also got BMW who seem to be in a bit of trouble and who need collaborations, to trim down and to sell off things they won't need. I also found it interesting that Martin Whitmarsh commented on BMW F1's supposed sale and was casting some serious doubt on it.

However, pulling the plug on Mercedes this season for next season is far, far too early. It would basically mean that McLaren don't have an engine to put in the car that they're designing right now. That's just too much to ask. I would expect them to keep Mercedes on board for the remaining couple of seasons and then let their relationship lapse and part ways until McLaren as a whole is seriously up and running.

Unless the BMW is significantly differently packaged compared to the Merc,it is entirely possible to drop in the BMW with some modification.
The ket element here is the McLaren Gearbox; will it mate to the BMW?
That may require some extensive redesign.
with refuellling gone next year, you may well see the return to transverse gearboxes (currently all are longuitudinal) in an effort to save on space and keep the length of the cars within what the engineers consider to be ideal for the weight. Some extra length will be needed to allow for extra weight no doubt. The point is that the packaging equation results in very little carry over from 2009 to 2010. Perhaps they can keep the tub but the floor, gearbox and engine covers will all change.
the front wing will need to be altered as will the diffusor.
2010 cars will be completely new thanks to the ban on refuelling.

So if McLaren need to design the car around a BMW the key parameters are already contained within the fixed architecture as required by the FIA. The engine is really not the problem here. They could probably decide by end October what will be fitted. So if they are going it alone we'll see an announcement soon.

[Pup]

...if its not going to have any road car connection, why bother going to the trouble of making their own? they have mercedes engines for another two years, even if merc want out of mclaren, they still get to use their engines. and why wouldnt merc wish to continue selling them engines anyways. there is gossip that one of the reasons merc want to have interests in two teams is so they can supply 4 teams their engines.

Because Merc and Mac are now competitors. It would be like Ferrari putting someone else's engine in their car.

But I do think that it's more likely for the two to see out the life of their contract before going separate ways.

[Giblet]

I'm still not sure that Mercedes see Mclaren as competition, but Ron has always resisted Merc getting ownership, and Merc wants ownership or control of a team.

People who go to the Mercedes dealerships are going to buy a mercedes. They are not light weight sports cars. They are heavy luxury cars with gadgetry and extreme power to make them handle as good as they can.

The Mclaren sports car will be a purists ride, and most Mercs are sold to people who simple want the best, including gold emblems.

I don't see either group being too worried about competition taking sales away. Ferrari, Lambo, Aston, etc are the market that Mclaren will be chipping at. If I want a giant 4 door AMG of some kind, a Mclaren sports car is not a suitable replacement.

EDIT: I foolishly responded thinking that this was about their road cars.

[Pup]

It is about their road cars to a large extent. I don't think we'd be having this discussion had they not decided to go full bore into the road car business.

And for evidence as to how McLaren feel about Merc as a competitor, just check the timing of the MP4/12c launch relative to Merc's SLS.

[WhiteBlue]

Scuderia McLaren is doomed IMHO. I rather think that Richards will put something together along those lines for Aston Martin.

[Michiba]

a bit off topic, but what are the hurdles against using an F1 engine in a production car?

My first guess would be the price, but would it be feasible to use a detuned ex race engine in a production car? Just thinking out loud here.

[Pup]

Scuderia McLaren is doomed IMHO. I rather think that Richards will put something together along those lines for Aston Martin.

I don't know why you'd say that, other than the fact that you've been predicting McLaren's doom for years.

As for Aston Martin, I love the brand, but their recent moves are bewildering. Rebadging Toyotas and that nauseating Lagonda concept??? If this is what we can expect from Richards, the AM is headed for another cold season.

[Raptor22]

a bit off topic, but what are the hurdles against using an F1 engine in a production car?

My first guess would be the price, but would it be feasible to use a detuned ex race engine in a production car? Just thinking out loud here.

There are numerous challenges:

# an F1 engine idles at 4000 rpm, peak power is around 17500 rpm, peak torques is around 14000rpm. That makes it difficult to live with in peak traffic

# F1 engines are unsquare in bore stroke configuration i.e. the stroke is shorter the bore is in diameter

# F1 engines uses a dry sump with no accomodation in the block for a wet sump.A dry sump on a roadcar is not a problem, its just expensive and dissipates a lot of heat which is difficult to live with in a passenger car.


It is technically possible to take an F1 block and modify it for use as a road engine but the result will no longer be an F1 engine.

In the 1980'2, BMW's 4 cyclinder turbo engine used the block from the M1 sports car. It was substantially modified though.

[Pup]

I think that whole pneumatic valve thing might prove problematic, too.

At the end of the day, I think the answer to the question is "You could, but why?". F1 engines are built around a set of rules that don't apply in the real world.

But you could use bits and pieces, maybe start from the same block, etc. Might save a bit of effort and gives you some juicy marketing. Still, when it comes down to it, all that's important is the nameplate and it's F1 association.

[modbaraban]

In the 1980'2, BMW's 4 cyclinder turbo engine used the block from the M1 sports car. It was substantially modified though.

The M1 had a straight 6.

[Michiba]

a bit off topic, but what are the hurdles against using an F1 engine in a production car?

My first guess would be the price, but would it be feasible to use a detuned ex race engine in a production car? Just thinking out loud here.

There are numerous challenges:

# an F1 engine idles at 4000 rpm, peak power is around 17500 rpm, peak torques is around 14000rpm. That makes it difficult to live with in peak traffic

# F1 engines are unsquare in bore stroke configuration i.e. the stroke is shorter the bore is in diameter

# F1 engines uses a dry sump with no accomodation in the block for a wet sump.A dry sump on a roadcar is not a problem, its just expensive and dissipates a lot of heat which is difficult to live with in a passenger car.


It is technically possible to take an F1 block and modify it for use as a road engine but the result will no longer be an F1 engine.

In the 1980'2, BMW's 4 cyclinder turbo engine used the block from the M1 sports car. It was substantially modified though.

fair enough. I just thought it might be a good marketing gimmick, plus a good way to recycle old f1 engines.

The reason I pointed this out was that I remember a few years ago (I think it was renault), one of the car manufacturers put an f1 engine into one of their people movers and got it to do a sub 3 second 0-60.

[modbaraban]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEDwfk8EYR0&fmt=[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q62JHD0nB8Q&fmt=[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiUQNJfQ4W0&fmt=[/youtube]

[WhiteBlue]

I don't know why you'd say that, other than the fact that you've been predicting McLaren's doom for years.

I reject this. It is completely untrue. I have not predicted McLaren's doom for years. Stop telling such nonsense.

The rift between Mercedes and McLaren over road cars is only public for a year or so. It is true that I have seen this conflict as damaging for McLaren's prospects from the begin. But that is something many observers agree with.

I see Aston Martin in a better position to follow a Scuderia concept because they have a substantial brand image for sports cars and racing. They also have an existing customer base which needs no convincing that spending obscene amounts of money will buy something desirable. They also have a service organization that can support the product in the field. Aston can even leverage a british racing green paint scheme to their advantage if they want.

McLaren have never carried a consistent livery but sold the right to name the cars to the respective main sponsor. So they are not associated with their own orange paint scheme. They are more associated with the Marlboro livery or the Merc silver arrows. There are good reasons to believe that McLaren will have a hard time to pull the Scuderia McLaren concept off.

[gibells]

In reply to that all I can say is the best of luck to them.

And I think you're wrong about the cars. Recent smaller British car manufacturers have tended to use other powerplants (Lotus, Noble, Ariel, Ginetta, Morgan, etc etc) and as such will remain small. It is only when they go all out as a complete manufacturer in their own right that they will gain an equal status to Ferrari.

Politics turned their second car (the SLR) into something completely opposite in concept and execution to their way of thinking. I am glad that they are going down their own path.

That way Ronnie can stick two fingers up to the rest of them. Viva la revolucion!