2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[PierreW]

That's not only McLaren who are much better, but also Mercedes and Ferrari now. All of them have outdevelopped Red Bull in the building of their car. Without Max, be realistic, Red Bull would be lucky to have 20 points in the championship. That would be the result of all the work of the engineers. Probably the pool of engineers need to be strengthened or renewed if the result of their work is pushing and pushing toward the bottom.

The development of the RB20 was bad. They were behind Ferrari and Mercedes at end of last year. This is true but it's water under the bridge. They were bold to try something new so that they wouldn't be caught. It failed. That happens sometimes...

The RB21 is different. There has been massive progress with the Jeddah-Miami-Imola upgrades. Did we watch the same race today? In 50C track temp, with extra pit stop, Max was going to finish 1 pitstop ahead of the Ferrari and 2 pitstops ahead of the Mercedes. They have turned it around to some extent. The updates are "upgrades", not "downgrades". I've already discussed the rear axle temperature management of the Mclaren. Red Bull are working on their own solution to improve this detail. If that upgrade succeeds, it will unlock laptime in qualifying and the race from the existing car, without any aero update. That is purely from how they can set the car up without having to protect the rear end as much, and how the tires stay alive throughout the qualy lap.

Yes, no one but Max would be doing that in this car, but the RB21 still has it's roots in the RB20 and there's only so much that can change with the resource available. The alternative is to set yourself back 1-2 years on a brand new aero concept and basically run mid-pick through the end of 2025, for no reason at all since the rules are changing.

Look where Ferrari is where there 99% new car. Ferrari was not wrong to pursue a brand new concept, but it takes time to extract the full potential and there isn't enough time to do that if you were hoping to compete in the championships. Ferrari just gambled that it wouldn't take so long to get the concept up to speed. They have potential and we've seen glimpses of it, but the championships will have been long out of reach by the time that they extract it.

They are still behind Mercedes and Ferrari if we watch the rankings. There are two drivers. I stop to believe what Red Bull say, the car is like last year, a diva that needs perfect conditions and a perfect extreme driving to have a chance to win. The slightest element not going its way and the car drops off.

Horner still say that they don"t understand why their updtates never work and why the wind tunnel does not correlate with the reality. Wache just admitted today that they got Tsunoda settup completely wrong. The car is very hard to set up and does not react as intented. It's the definition of a diva when the others cars are much more balanced.

Verstappen sounded the alarm early last year but was ignored on Wache own words.

But the most damning judgement came from Newey who said that the team lacked experience and that's why they struggled now. This is not the same team that won in 2021-2023 anymore.

I am very convinced that RB engineers still don't know what is wrong and even less how to fix it. The car work only in a very specific window and with a perfect set up and only when Max drives it.

[AR3-GP]

That's not only McLaren who are much better, but also Mercedes and Ferrari now. All of them have outdevelopped Red Bull in the building of their car. Without Max, be realistic, Red Bull would be lucky to have 20 points in the championship. That would be the result of all the work of the engineers. Probably the pool of engineers need to be strengthened or renewed if the result of their work is pushing and pushing toward the bottom.

The development of the RB20 was bad. They were behind Ferrari and Mercedes at end of last year. This is true but it's water under the bridge. They were bold to try something new so that they wouldn't be caught. It failed. That happens sometimes...

The RB21 is different. There has been massive progress with the Jeddah-Miami-Imola upgrades. Did we watch the same race today? In 50C track temp, with extra pit stop, Max was going to finish 1 pitstop ahead of the Ferrari and 2 pitstops ahead of the Mercedes. They have turned it around to some extent. The updates are "upgrades", not "downgrades". I've already discussed the rear axle temperature management of the Mclaren. Red Bull are working on their own solution to improve this detail. If that upgrade succeeds, it will unlock laptime in qualifying and the race from the existing car, without any aero update. That is purely from how they can set the car up without having to protect the rear end as much, and how the tires stay alive throughout the qualy lap.

Yes, no one but Max would be doing that in this car, but the RB21 still has it's roots in the RB20 and there's only so much that can change with the resource available. The alternative is to set yourself back 1-2 years on a brand new aero concept and basically run mid-pick through the end of 2025, for no reason at all since the rules are changing.

Look where Ferrari is where there 99% new car. Ferrari was not wrong to pursue a brand new concept, but it takes time to extract the full potential and there isn't enough time to do that if you were hoping to compete in the championships. Ferrari just gambled that it wouldn't take so long to get the concept up to speed. They have potential and we've seen glimpses of it, but the championships will have been long out of reach by the time that they extract it.

They are still behind Mercedes and Ferrari if we watch the rankings. There are two drivers. I stop to believe what Red Bull say, the car is like last year, a diva that needs perfect conditions and a perfect extreme driving to have a chance to win. The slightest element not going its way and the car drops off.

Horner still say that they don"t understand why their updtates never work and why the wind tunnel does not correlate with the reality. Wache just admitted today that they got Tsunoda settup completely wrong. The car is very hard to set up and does not react as intented. It's the definition of a diva when the others cars are much more balanced.

Verstappen sounded the alarm early last year but was ignored on Wache own words.

But the most damning judgement came from Newey who said that the team lacked experience and that's why they struggled now. This is not the same team that won in 2021-2023 anymore.

I am very convinced that RB engineers still don't know what is wrong and even less how to fix it. The car work only in a very specific window and with a perfect set up and only when Max drives it.

Do I think that Max is flattering the car? Yes, but when you won nearly all races in 2023 (while Perez was struggling), it's not so straightforward to start trying to build a 100% different car. Every team on the grids wishes they could have an RB19, that only 1 person could drive and for which they won all races that year bar 1, because the alternative is to win nothing. F1 teams are desperate to win races and if you have even a sniff of something that is winning races with 1 driver, then you will live with it. Most teams don't win any races with any driver. 2024 was an aberration.

[PierreW]

He's out of reach of RB, too big for the team now since he can behave how he wants, but you cant succeed without him. For me its a central part of RBs issue in that he became the sole focus and the mantra, supported by Marko - kill or be killed, has created a lot of casualties on the way To compound it is that if he leaves, you can see that RB cant find anyone else than can do much better with it than if it were a HAAS.

That's one way to look at it. Max has hidden Red Bull problems for too long and they become complacent. They did not hear Max concerns, they did not even hear Newey concerns right before he left.

And they are now stuck with a car they can't fix.

[mwillems]

The development of the RB20 was bad. They were behind Ferrari and Mercedes at end of last year. This is true but it's water under the bridge. They were bold to try something new so that they wouldn't be caught. It failed. That happens sometimes...

The RB21 is different. There has been massive progress with the Jeddah-Miami-Imola upgrades. Did we watch the same race today? In 50C track temp, with extra pit stop, Max was going to finish 1 pitstop ahead of the Ferrari and 2 pitstops ahead of the Mercedes. They have turned it around to some extent. The updates are "upgrades", not "downgrades". I've already discussed the rear axle temperature management of the Mclaren. Red Bull are working on their own solution to improve this detail. If that upgrade succeeds, it will unlock laptime in qualifying and the race from the existing car, without any aero update. That is purely from how they can set the car up without having to protect the rear end as much, and how the tires stay alive throughout the qualy lap.

Yes, no one but Max would be doing that in this car, but the RB21 still has it's roots in the RB20 and there's only so much that can change with the resource available. The alternative is to set yourself back 1-2 years on a brand new aero concept and basically run mid-pick through the end of 2025, for no reason at all since the rules are changing.

Look where Ferrari is where there 99% new car. Ferrari was not wrong to pursue a brand new concept, but it takes time to extract the full potential and there isn't enough time to do that if you were hoping to compete in the championships. Ferrari just gambled that it wouldn't take so long to get the concept up to speed. They have potential and we've seen glimpses of it, but the championships will have been long out of reach by the time that they extract it.

They are still behind Mercedes and Ferrari if we watch the rankings. There are two drivers. I stop to believe what Red Bull say, the car is like last year, a diva that needs perfect conditions and a perfect extreme driving to have a chance to win. The slightest element not going its way and the car drops off.

Horner still say that they don"t understand why their updtates never work and why the wind tunnel does not correlate with the reality. Wache just admitted today that they got Tsunoda settup completely wrong. The car is very hard to set up and does not react as intented. It's the definition of a diva when the others cars are much more balanced.

Verstappen sounded the alarm early last year but was ignored on Wache own words.

But the most damning judgement came from Newey who said that the team lacked experience and that's why they struggled now. This is not the same team that won in 2021-2023 anymore.

I am very convinced that RB engineers still don't know what is wrong and even less how to fix it. The car work only in a very specific window and with a perfect set up and only when Max drives it.

Do I think that Max is flattering the car? Yes, but when you won nearly all races in 2023 (while Perez was struggling), it's not so straightforward to start trying to build a 100% different car. Every on the team on the grids wishes they could have an RB19, that only 1 person could drive and for which they won all races that year bar 1, because the alternative is to win nothing. F1 teams are desperate to win races and if you have even a sniff of something that is winning races with 1 driver, then you will live with it. Most teams don't win any races with any driver.

But Newey painted a different picture, one of an issue that needed addressing and rectifying early on.

It's pretty notable that he chose to discuss the teams approach, which was to ensure that come what may, the only driver of concern was Max.

[PierreW]

The development of the RB20 was bad. They were behind Ferrari and Mercedes at end of last year. This is true but it's water under the bridge. They were bold to try something new so that they wouldn't be caught. It failed. That happens sometimes...

The RB21 is different. There has been massive progress with the Jeddah-Miami-Imola upgrades. Did we watch the same race today? In 50C track temp, with extra pit stop, Max was going to finish 1 pitstop ahead of the Ferrari and 2 pitstops ahead of the Mercedes. They have turned it around to some extent. The updates are "upgrades", not "downgrades". I've already discussed the rear axle temperature management of the Mclaren. Red Bull are working on their own solution to improve this detail. If that upgrade succeeds, it will unlock laptime in qualifying and the race from the existing car, without any aero update. That is purely from how they can set the car up without having to protect the rear end as much, and how the tires stay alive throughout the qualy lap.

Yes, no one but Max would be doing that in this car, but the RB21 still has it's roots in the RB20 and there's only so much that can change with the resource available. The alternative is to set yourself back 1-2 years on a brand new aero concept and basically run mid-pick through the end of 2025, for no reason at all since the rules are changing.

Look where Ferrari is where there 99% new car. Ferrari was not wrong to pursue a brand new concept, but it takes time to extract the full potential and there isn't enough time to do that if you were hoping to compete in the championships. Ferrari just gambled that it wouldn't take so long to get the concept up to speed. They have potential and we've seen glimpses of it, but the championships will have been long out of reach by the time that they extract it.

They are still behind Mercedes and Ferrari if we watch the rankings. There are two drivers. I stop to believe what Red Bull say, the car is like last year, a diva that needs perfect conditions and a perfect extreme driving to have a chance to win. The slightest element not going its way and the car drops off.

Horner still say that they don"t understand why their updtates never work and why the wind tunnel does not correlate with the reality. Wache just admitted today that they got Tsunoda settup completely wrong. The car is very hard to set up and does not react as intented. It's the definition of a diva when the others cars are much more balanced.

Verstappen sounded the alarm early last year but was ignored on Wache own words.

But the most damning judgement came from Newey who said that the team lacked experience and that's why they struggled now. This is not the same team that won in 2021-2023 anymore.

I am very convinced that RB engineers still don't know what is wrong and even less how to fix it. The car work only in a very specific window and with a perfect set up and only when Max drives it.

Do I think that Max is flattering the car? Yes, but when you won nearly all races in 2023 (while Perez was struggling), it's not so straightforward to start trying to build a 100% different car. Every team on the grids wishes they could have an RB19, that only 1 person could drive and for which they won all races that year bar 1, because the alternative is to win nothing. F1 teams are desperate to win races and if you have even a sniff of something that is winning races with 1 driver, then you will live with it. Most teams don't win any races with any driver.

My concern is that they still don't really understand where they went wrong , and their updates are not really fixing the problems. They introduce an update for one race, it seems better, but then it was just the setup and they nailed that tiny window right, and the next race the update prove negligible.

To me it points more to a lack of skills rather than being unwilling to develop due to the end of regulation.

[PierreW]

They are still behind Mercedes and Ferrari if we watch the rankings. There are two drivers. I stop to believe what Red Bull say, the car is like last year, a diva that needs perfect conditions and a perfect extreme driving to have a chance to win. The slightest element not going its way and the car drops off.

Horner still say that they don"t understand why their updtates never work and why the wind tunnel does not correlate with the reality. Wache just admitted today that they got Tsunoda settup completely wrong. The car is very hard to set up and does not react as intented. It's the definition of a diva when the others cars are much more balanced.

Verstappen sounded the alarm early last year but was ignored on Wache own words.

But the most damning judgement came from Newey who said that the team lacked experience and that's why they struggled now. This is not the same team that won in 2021-2023 anymore.

I am very convinced that RB engineers still don't know what is wrong and even less how to fix it. The car work only in a very specific window and with a perfect set up and only when Max drives it.

Do I think that Max is flattering the car? Yes, but when you won nearly all races in 2023 (while Perez was struggling), it's not so straightforward to start trying to build a 100% different car. Every on the team on the grids wishes they could have an RB19, that only 1 person could drive and for which they won all races that year bar 1, because the alternative is to win nothing. F1 teams are desperate to win races and if you have even a sniff of something that is winning races with 1 driver, then you will live with it. Most teams don't win any races with any driver.

But Newey painted a different picture, one of an issue that needed addressing and rectifying early on.

It's pretty notable that he chose to discuss the teams approach, which was to ensure that come what may, the only driver of concern was Max.

It's interesting , because Wache himself admitted that they ignored Max's concerns early last year about the lack of balance of the car because he was still fast in it and sot they did not take him seriously and continued on their flawed path.

[mwillems]

He's out of reach of RB, too big for the team now since he can behave how he wants, but you cant succeed without him. For me its a central part of RBs issue in that he became the sole focus and the mantra, supported by Marko - kill or be killed, has created a lot of casualties on the way To compound it is that if he leaves, you can see that RB cant find anyone else than can do much better with it than if it were a HAAS.

That's one way to look at it. Max has hidden Red Bull problems for too long and they become complacent. They did not hear Max concerns, they did not even hear Newey concerns right before he left.

And they are now stuck with a car they can't fix.

The car is as good as its fastest times. Max isnt superhuman. The car is simply capable of being extremely fast although there is a tendency to pretend otherwise. It's one upgrade away from Mclaren. and its driver should be closer in the drivers championship ready to pounce on any Mclaren mistakes. It's clearly not the fastest, but any suggestion it isnt fast is pure fantasy.

[Magistos]

They don't understand the car. They thought they did, and so continued to develop it. But it really seems like they actually don't understand what Newey was doing and what the vision, goals, and functions of the car are.

[PierreW]

He's out of reach of RB, too big for the team now since he can behave how he wants, but you cant succeed without him. For me its a central part of RBs issue in that he became the sole focus and the mantra, supported by Marko - kill or be killed, has created a lot of casualties on the way To compound it is that if he leaves, you can see that RB cant find anyone else than can do much better with it than if it were a HAAS.

That's one way to look at it. Max has hidden Red Bull problems for too long and they become complacent. They did not hear Max concerns, they did not even hear Newey concerns right before he left.

And they are now stuck with a car they can't fix.

The car is as good as its fastest times. Max isnt superhuman. The car is simply capable of being extremely fast although there is a tendency to pretend otherwise. It's one upgrade away from Mclaren. and its driver should be closer in the drivers championship ready to pounce on any Mclaren mistakes. It's clearly not the fastest, but any suggestion it isnt fast is pure fantasy.

I think Max would take his car to the scrapyard if he could have a McLaren or even a Ferrari.

[mwillems]

Ferrari?? You've the second fastest car, easily.

[AR3-GP]

But Newey painted a different picture, one of an issue that needed addressing and rectifying early on.

It's pretty notable that he chose to discuss the teams approach, which was to ensure that come what may, the only driver of concern was Max.

Can you rephrase both statements? I don't understand them.

[leblanc]

Mclaren don't have the best drivers, but they have the best team, and that is worth so much more.

Corny. Norris and Piastri are championship-grade drivers. Verstappen has carried RBR before and is doing it now.

But today the only thing is what Max thinks, or Max compared to.otber drivers, as if thats the only thing that counts. And honestly i read things like that and its symptomatic (reflective) of RBs decline.

Ridiculous. RBR's decline is due to a large technical talent loss and ignoring concerns from their best driver.

[mwillems]

But we don't have the best drivers, it's a simple fact. Max is the best driver. Mclaren's success has been about every component, not one, this is the team that is leading today because they focussed on building the team, not the car. it's why the comments made about the Mclaren drivers are laughable and misguided.

"Ridiculous. RBR's decline is due to a large technical talent loss and ignoring concerns from their best driver."

But this is the way many RB fans do indeed talk about it, and the way the team certainly appear to approach it, epitomised by their disregard for Newey's concerns that they were developing a car with flaws that only one driver could handle.

[AR3-GP]

But we don't have the best drivers, it's a simple fact. Max is the best driver. Mclaren's success has been about every component, not one, this is the team that is leading today because they focussed on building the team, not the car. it's why the comments made about the Mclaren drivers are laughable and misguided.

"Ridiculous. RBR's decline is due to a large technical talent loss and ignoring concerns from their best driver."

But this is the way many RB fans do indeed talk about it, and the way the team certainly appear to approach it, epitomised by their disregard for Newey's concerns that they were developing a car with flaws that only one driver could handle.

Mclaren win a single WCC in more than a decade, and suddenly any non-Mclaren team is doing it all wrong?

RBR won 8x WDC operating in their ways. Twice 4 in a row. Methods and philosophies that were co-signed by Rob Marshall, Jonathan Wheatley, William Courtenay, Adrian Newey, and other recent departures to Mclaren. People that according to you must have been deeply unhappy for 18 years before they figured out where horner kept the keys to get out of the building? What exactly is the argument here? You're making Newey out to be the one guy against the team he hand built with Horner, Marko, and Mateschitz. A large part of why many of these people are gone is because 20+ years is a long time to stay in 1 team, and the budget cap made it impossible for them all to stay in the same place. Are there any 20+ year leaders at Mclaren?

Newey's disagreements were normal. He stated that this was in his working pihlosophy. Disagreement is not end all be all. He liked to be challenged by the other technical leaders within the team. He said that himself. There's no proof that Newey's proposal would have worked better. That is only your suspicion without evidence. Newey helped make many good cars, but some were not.

I think you're making fairly lazy arguments as well, perhaps drunk off Mclaren's more recent success. Did you make the same arguments in the Vettel era or after Max won in 2021? RB had troubles with the 2nd driver when Adrian Newey was the technical director with full authority. Webber was nowhere towards end of Vettel reign. Gasly experienced the wrath of Adrian Newey directly. Now you're trying to claim that Adrian was secretly against Red Bull's philosophy the whole time? What took him so long to quit?

[avantman]

But we don't have the best drivers, it's a simple fact. Max is the best driver. Mclaren's success has been about every component, not one, this is the team that is leading today because they focussed on building the team, not the car. it's why the comments made about the Mclaren drivers are laughable and misguided.

"Ridiculous. RBR's decline is due to a large technical talent loss and ignoring concerns from their best driver."

But this is the way many RB fans do indeed talk about it, and the way the team certainly appear to approach it, epitomised by their disregard for Newey's concerns that they were developing a car with flaws that only one driver could handle.

Mclaren has the best car, I would not call them the best team. I would agree with the statement Mclaren has the best technical team at the factory for now. But I would like to see confirmation next year. If they come up again with the fastest and reliable car, keep doing what they've been doing, more or less, this year. Then yes, they are the best team overall. For now, they just have an utterly dominant car and only the genius of Verstappen makes Mclaren look less dominant than they really are. Take Max out of equation, take safety car interventions out of equations and you get either Mclaren driver winning almost all races by 20+, 30+ seconds this year. That is utterly dominant car.